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Archive of the Special Education Message Board Folder:
Dysgraphia/Writing Problems
January 27, 1997 - November 30, 1997
FILE NAME:  dysgraph.txt
450 messages - 145 Pages

SUBJECT:  Re:not always being the bad    Date:  97-01-27 09:10:33 EST
From:  Lmazzola

Hi Robin:

I feel the same as you do. Sometimes it seems as if I've entered the
profession of teaching, without having chosen it! Sort of by default.

A very good friend of mine, who has a child the acquired a brain injury
several years ago, doesn't "patrol" his homework, as I do my child's. She
feels that it's his responsibility. Also, if she helps him get the correct
answers all the time, the teachers won't know if, and when he's having
trouble.

Now, there is some validity to how she chooses to handle her child's
homework. On the other hand, I say, that what good is the homework assignment
if the child gets it wrong. Especially if the homework is not looked at or
handed in the next day (as is often the case in middle school)...the child
assumes the homework is correct and the errors, left uncorrected, will
persist.

So, I feel it's in my child's best interest that I "patrol" her homework. I
always let her start on her own, but I am very close by so that she can ask
for help as needed. Then we go over her assignments and make sure everything
is done and done correctly.

Hang in there.


SUBJECT:  Dysgraphia Eval & Remed    Date:  97-01-27 14:15:28 EST
From:  Bjcbgems

Professor Emeritus UCLA , speciality in motor-development problems including
dysgraphia will recommend materials, and  evaluate and recommend remedial
programs, BJCBgems @aol.com

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia Eval & Remed    Date:  97-01-27 16:48:41 EST
From:  Mars000210

hello, it is very hard if you don't have dysgraphia to realize how hard your
child must work to accomplish the goals set at school. I am dysgrpahic with
three children with  the same glitch. Yes, I think god has a funny sence of
humor, I will repeat school three times over with my children, I didn't do
well in school my first try through, maybe he is giving me another chance..
The process of putting down any information is difficult enough for me, here
on this message board is no exception. I wonder how well my children would do
if I left them to do it on there own. It is frustrating to sit with them
every night and go over or help them with there homework, but the pay off is
I know they actually know the work. They are not frustrated with school, they
even like it, thought occasionally over the years  they have complained at
how much time they must put in at home to accomplich completion of their
school work. I am not critisizing anyone here in this post just giving
another view point. In school the teachers are responsible and held
accountable for your childs progress and from my point of view parents then
take up responsiblity when the kids come home. As the years have gone by I
have waited for cues that let me know when my children have been ready to
start taking on more of the responsiblity for independent work at home. It
waxes and wanes at times, but it does happen, more often then not they tell
me when they can accomplish assignments without my help. There is a bonus in
all this I have learned so many interresting things, I would not have known
before , some have even helped me when playing trivial persuit.

SUBJECT:  Re:
Good resources   Date:  97-01-28 12:37:19 EST
From:  Caitlin35

With 2 dysgraphic boys, we've been through it, too--the homework wars,
pleading, tears, etc. Things have improved a lot since got a better IEP and
we have enforced it. When inappropriate homework comes home,  I have copied a
form which says "mark's homework was not done last night because it was not
in line with his IEP. Therefore, we have (and I check one)(a) modified it by
shortening the assignment, (b) had him do it orally (c) not seen a practical
way to modify it and need to ask for your input. (This is usually for big
projects that have a LOT of fine motor work involved, like building
California missions, or ancient rome out of toothpicks, or something.)  At
the end, I write," As always, please contact US with any concerns about this
assignment. (and include our phone number.) That way, our child doesn't get
fussed at by some teachers who "don't feel like" going with the IEP, and he
doesn't have to listen to six lectures a week about how he should "just take
responsibility" etc. This little form saves us MUCH time and effort, and we
show it to them at the IEP so they know it's there, and it helps teachers
too.--Kathy

SUBJECT:  Re:Good Book   Date:  97-01-28 12:38:56 EST
From:  Caitlin35

Also, get ahold of Susan S29's book, Taming the Dragons (by Susan Setley) as
it has some simple and practical ways you can help with your child's
writing.

SUBJECT:  dysgrahic chat    Date:  97-01-28 23:44:21 EST
From:  Mars000210

hello, several people have expressed interrest in an informal chat. Friday
the 31st of this month at 9pm EST/ has been suggested by me. If anyone is
interrested please Email me. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:not always being the bad    Date:  97-02-03 00:10:32 EST
From:  RJALTMAN

Thanks for the answers.  I've really tried to leave the homework alone.  On
the nights he's having a bad time, I just let him do it, and hope for the
best.  the funny thing is, his content is usually better than 90% correct --
it's the writing I harp on.  Our principal tells me to back off, so I do.  In
terms of getting him tested at school, they don't seem to be jumping on the
bandwagon, probably because he performs well above grade level, in everything
but handwriting & spelling.  I'm willing to wait it out, but I want to get
more information and be prepared for middle school (which starts Sept 98 for
him).

Thanks for the advice.  I'll be back.  Robin

SUBJECT:  Re:Good Book   Date:  97-02-03 00:18:59 EST
From:  RJALTMAN

Please, someone tell me how to order this book.  I've heard it mentioned
several times here, and I'd like to get a hold of it.

e-mail at RJALTMAN.  Thanks.

Robin

SUBJECT:  Re:Good Book   Date:  97-02-03 04:58:16 EST
From:  Ratatat

<<
Please, someone tell me how to order this book.>>

What book is that?

SUBJECT:  Re:Good Book   Date:  97-02-04 23:35:55 EST
From:  RJALTMAN

Sorry Ratatat - Not sure of the name, I think Susan S29 wrote it.

Thanks.

SUBJECT:  Re:Good Book   Date:  97-02-05 10:37:10 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, The book is called Taming the Dragons, by Susan Setley. Go to any book
store and have them order it for you.

SUBJECT:  Re:Good Book   Date:  97-02-06 08:54:20 EST
From:  Ratatat

<<Sorry Ratatat - Not sure of the name, I think Susan S29 wrote it.>>

That's Taming the Dragons:  Real Help for Real School Problems by Susan
Setley.  You can order it from the Hawthorne Educational Services catalog at
1-800-542-1673

SUBJECT:  Dysgraphia/Testing   Date:  97-02-06 10:48:25 EST
From:  GlynFP1

Hello,

I have a few questions and need some advice.  Some of you may have followed
my posts on this and other boards.  We had our first meeting with the Child
Study Committee yesterday concerning my son's writing problems.  I came to
the meeting over-prepared expecting to have to really fight to get action for
my son.  I was pleasantly surprised.  His teacher began by talking about my
son's strengths and saying that his only weakness was written expression.  I
must say that both my husband and I got choked up when she described some of
my son's difficulties (some of which we hadn't been aware of) and we were
both thinking, "poor little guy!"  Anyway, I had been warned that the first
(and sometimes the only) thing the committee would recommend would be
keyboarding.  Well, they started out that way but in the course of the
meeting I think they were really struck by the discrepancy between my son's
strengths and his written output.  I didn't even get a chance to present the
annotated work samples I had brought with me!  They all decided on the spot
as a whole that he should be recommended for testing.  We are going to try
some modifications in the classroom for 2 weeks (I know this isn't a long
time, but they're just going through the motions.  They really feel he needs
to be tested.) and if they don't work then we'll meet again re:the testing
process.  In the course of their discussion they mentioned Woodcock-Johnson
and TOWL.  I was glad they mentioned TOWL because it made me feel they were
on top of things.  I've read positive things about that test.  I don't know
the full course of testing that they will recommend.  QUESTIONS:  Is the
Woodcock-Johnson a reliable test for ruling out or pinpointing LD's? When is
W-J used as opposed to WISC?  I understand the W-J is a wide-ranging test.
What can they learn from it?  What else should they be suggesting for
testing?  ALSO:  In a month or so the third grade will be taking yet another
standardized test that involves alot of writing.  I'm not sure of the name,
but will find it out later today.  During yesterday's meeting the teacher
mentioned that test to the psychologists and said she thought he wouldn't do
well on that test and that it could hurt him.  He currently is being
considered for the permanent gifted program.   Can tests like that hurt his
chances to get in?  I would think so.  He just got his Cogat results--99
verbal, 96 quantitative and 95 non-verbal and his last year's ITBS score was
99+ for the total battery.  Obviously none of those tests include written
expression.  Can I possibly have him opted out of the writing test?  I would
think that part of an IEP would include being able to opt out of something
like that, but with the time frame we have, he wouldn't have an IEP by the
time the testing is to take place.  What do you think?  (SusanS29-I know you
think the Cogats are worthless, but they figure prominently in our school
system' decision for the gifted program.) I think my son is borderline as it
is and I fear that having that written test could hurt his chances even more.
Another thing they consider is work samples and needless to say his aren't
very impressive.  How do we make it so that his current status as "possibly
LD" can be considered in the process of the gifted determination?
I'm sure I could think of several other questions, but I think I've given you
all enough of them for now!  Any comments, suggestions, etc.  are welcome.

Glyn

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia/Testing   Date:  97-02-06 16:18:02 EST
From:  Mars000210

Just keep in mind that after testing if written expression is found to be the
area where he needs help and they suggest keyboading make sure ,they provide
instuction (even over the summer) in those skills and not just access to a
computer (which means as long as there is some time spent on a computer that
quialfies) most schools have summer school for keyboarding. Keyboarding and
and a computer, or a cowriter of some type will need to be used for all
written work if he is to lesson his frustration and improve his content. I
wish I had started my children with this intervention even sooner then this
year. What a difference it has made.

SUBJECT:  NCR paper    Date:  97-02-06 20:19:52 EST
From:  Lizzy48734

I live in the Boston area and cannot find NCR paper anywhere in stores or in
catalogs? Can anybody suggest stores and/or catalogs - thanks for any
help.

SUBJECT:  Re:NCR paper    Date:  97-02-07 01:04:47 EST
From:  Mars000210

Our school provided the NCR paper. I have never seen it sold anywhere.

SUBJECT:
Re:NCR paper    Date:  97-02-07 19:52:25 EST
From:  KevisB

Check with a forms printer in your area. They will know who the wholesale
paper distributor is in your area. Then get your stationer to order it.

SUBJECT:
Re:Dysgraphia/Testing   Date:  97-02-07 22:54:40 EST
From:  BA3NORTH28

To GlyFP1:  Hi, I am an ESE Resource Teacher and also Chairperson of our
school's Student Success Team.  I wanted to clarify a few things about the
Woodcock Johnson and the WISC.  The WISC is an individually administered test
of intellectual ability - it lets us know, basically, what a child's level of
ability is - where he should be functioning (85-115 is an average range).
The Woodcock-Johnson is a series of subtests that look at what a child has
achieved academically compared to other children his age.  It uses the same
standard score range as the WISC and therefore we can see if a child is
achieving academically at his intellectual ability.  In our state, a child
must be achieving at least 15 points lower in one of the academic areas than
his IQ (that's called 1 standard deviation below ability).  The Test of
Written Language (TOWL) consists of 2 subtests- dictation and written
expression.  Dictation looks at spelling, punctuation, use of capitals, etc.
With Written Expression, the student is given a verbal prompt and a picture
(at younger ages) and is asked to write a good sentence about the picture.
Sentences are scored based on content of the sentence, not on the spelling
(except the first couple of questions).  There is another subtest they can
also give called Proofing.  Sometimes we've been able to place a child based
on that subtest and dictation (called Basic Writing Skills).
About taking the standardized test--- ask the Child Study Team if your child
can qualify for a Section 504 Plan which is like an IEP for non-Special Ed.
students. It would allow for modification of test administration or exempting
your child from the test. There are specific qualifications for a 504 plan,
so I don't know if your child would qualify.  Good Luck!  By the way, there
are gifted LD students!

SUBJECT:  Re:DYSGRAPHIA   Date:  97-02-08 02:30:02 EST
From:  Morenuf2

I agree with Susan. You need to get the large muscles involved. Remember, the
brain is wired with the concept - large to small. So start with large things
and work to the smaller. I would have started off with large diameter rope
that had to be shaped to the letter, then sand, then large writing on paper,
then smaller with flavored, scented dough, then small diameter rope, and
paper with lines.
  Good luck.:) It really does work and it lasts!

SUBJECT:  Re:Homework   Date:  97-02-08 02:40:42 EST
From:  Morenuf2

I agree in part with Susan in the fact that you're most immediate need is to
keep him up with the other student and if that takes a "secretary" at this
time, then so be it. Penny's solution to gives you a good suggestion as to
handling it in the immediate with an eye for problems yet to come. However, I
was dissappointed that neither of them suggested some of the methods to start
correcting the true problem. I guess since you said that your child was being
tested they assumed that it would be handled then. If that does not occurr
when the testing is complete please come up on the net again and ask for the
obvious - how do I correct my childs ability to transfer visual symbols to
written symboles. In the mean time, I would look at some of the suggestions
given under similar symptoms in this section.

SUBJECT:  Looking  For   Date:  97-02-08 10:18:00 EST
From:  C Blatt

  If you intend to attend   the  National  LDA    Convention in  Chicago from
February 18-21  1997 then  please E Mail me so that  we can find away to meet
in  Chicago.

SUBJECT:  Re:Problems with . . .   Date:  97-02-16 11:26:37 EST
From:  Cynann4636

With all of the alternate communication media available today, my suggestion
would be to teach her to sign her name in cursive and let her use the
computer for everything else.  It will be legible and less frustrating for
her and you.

SUBJECT:  Re:DYSGRAPHIA   Date:  97-02-23 12:42:09 EST
From:  SusanS29

"I would have started off with large diameter rope that had to be shaped to
the letter, then sand, then large writing on paper, then smaller with
flavored, scented dough, then small diameter rope, and paper with lines."

I have found some other really fun things to do. I found sparkly pipe
cleaners in the grocery store yesterday -- silver, gold, sparkly red and
royal blue -- I want to play with them myself, and any young child would love
forming letters with them.

There's also a cool product called "WickySticks" that a teacher supply store
may carry. They are essentially candle wicks -- covered with colored wax.
They're slightly sticky, which means they can be stuck to lap boards,
providing a good surface for the child to observe the letter he's formed.

I pass these out at workshops for adults who work with struggling learners,
and fifteen minutes later they're still playing with them.

SUBJECT:  Re:Homework   Date:  97-02-23 12:45:32 EST
From:  SusanS29

"However, I was dissappointed that neither of them suggested some of the
methods to start correcting the true problem."

Since the child hasn't been through a complete evaluation yet, we don't know
what the cause of the child's difficulties are yet. It would be premature to
try to defining how to solve a problem which hasn't yet been specified.

SUBJECT:
Re:Moved Message: Kjjla   Date:  97-02-26 11:00:50 EST
From:  LearningOk

Hello!

Your message was posted so long ago I'm not sure if you would still like to
talk?
Please E-mail me at  [e-mail].

SUBJECT:  Re:Writing difficulties   Date:  97-02-26 21:38:16 EST
From:  Kul45

I have  a 8 year old daughter who was recently diagnosed with dysgraphia.
This was interesting news after she had just finished three years of intense
chemotherapy for Leukemia.  Is there any evidence proving that the kind of
chemo or the way it was administered causes, facilitates, increased the
possibilities that she has this learning difficulty.  Our doctor, who by they
way is absolutley wonderful, told me that there is studies but "she could
have had this problem whether she got cancer or not"  Is there any medical
evidence that you are aware of?  (she is doing fine, in full remission for
the past four years, enjoying second grade, with a resource/special education
program that is tremendously effective.  The answer to all the questions is
the TEACHER!!!!!!  Ours is out of sight!!!!!!!

SUBJECT:  Re:Writing difficulties   Date:  97-02-27 11:02:57 EST
From:  SusanS29

"I have  a 8 year old daughter who was recently diagnosed with dysgraphia.
This was interesting news after she had just finished three years of intense
chemotherapy for Leukemia.  Is there any evidence proving that the kind of
chemo or the way it was administered causes, facilitates, increased the
possibilities that she has this learning difficulty."

Yes, there is, Kul. I'm sorry if you weren't told about that but of course
you have to do whatever is necessary to save your child's life. But your
doctor is right that she might have had the difficulty anyway also.

If you run into learning problems that your excellent teacher can't seem to
find ways to remediate, you might look into having your daughter tested by a
pediatric neuropsychologist. These people are highly skilled in testing for
this kind of learning problem, and they might be able to provide some
information. With your daughter's medical history, you should be able to
insist that the insurance pay for it.

SUBJECT:  Ask questions!   Date:  97-03-01 16:35:43 EST
From:  GlynFP1

As a parent  whose child has recently entered the world of Child Study
Committees, evaluations and testing in order to identify a possible learning
disability, I've been doing alot of research.  On a personal level, I am
shocked at how many parents whose children are being/have been evaluated for
learning disabilities have no idea what kind of tests and evaluations are
being used to diagnose their children.  One mother I know whose son was
diagnosed three years ago  with ADHD and a learning disability doesn't really
know what his LD is!  And he's been receiving services for those three years!
PLEASE, parents, ask questions!!  At my son's second Child Study Comm.
meeting I asked about the areas in which he'll be tested and what tests they
were going to use and the members of the Committee looked at me as if I had
asked about something that I didn't need to know about!  You need to know how
these diagnoses are being made.  You might be able to give them information
or make suggestions that they hadn't thought about.  Ask what specific
disability they will be testing him/her for or ask for him/her to be tested
in the specific area where you see problems.  (I realize that  sometimes
we're not sure of specifics and that the testing serves the purpose of being
able to pinpoint a particular area of disability.)  And, once a determination
that a learning disability exists has been made, find out what that
disability is!  How can you help your child is you don't even know where
he/she needs help?

Just venting....
Glyn

SUBJECT:  double standard?   Date:  97-03-01 16:45:21 EST
From:  GlynFP1

And another thing.....:)

I'm wondering about what I perceive to be a double standard concerning the
issues of reading difficulties vs. writing difficulties.  Our school has a
full-time Reading Specialist on staff.  When kids seem to be having trouble
with reading, they receive special services in the form of going to the
Reading Specialist once or several times a week.  There is no formal testing
involved, no IEP, etc.  Just--gee, Suzy is having a little difficulty with
reading.  Let's send her to Mrs. B. three times a week for this semester to
get her the extra help that she needs.  And it's done.
My son doesn't seem to have any problems with reading.  HIs problem is
primarily (and maybe exclusively) in the area of writing.  He gets no extra
help. We have to go through the entire Child Study process just to determine
if he has an LD in written expression.  Whether or not he has an actual LD in
this area remains to be seen, but there is no doubt that he has great
difficulty in this area.  If he isn't determined to be LD in written
expression, then that will be it.  No special help in school even though he
desperately needs it.  We are now considering a  private tutor at $25.00 an
hour!  Why is this so?  I think that once a child reaches third/fourth grade,
writing becomes as important as reading.  Kids will get graded on what they
write, not on what they know.   Any thoughts here?

Just venting again!

Glyn

SUBJECT:  Re:double standard?   Date:  97-03-01 20:49:06 EST
From:  Mithue

If your son is not diagnosed with LD, that is not the end. As long as there
is a medical diagnosis of ADD which interferes with his education, then he
can get services / modifications/ accomodations under 504. Have your
school's ARD team explain it to you.

SUBJECT:  Re:double standard?   Date:  97-03-02 12:03:17 EST
From:  Mars000210

     There is help that can be implemented in the class room for any child
with written expression difficulties. the teacher/ parent can decide to
implement these stratagies even before a formal diagnosis of Ld if found (
just as the children with reading difficulties get help without a formal
diagnosis). I think the difference is that most parents and teachers
understand the impact being unable to read has on a student, so the
implementation of stratagies to help those children is addressed as soon as
it is identified. Children with the other hidden LD's are less recognized and
the stratagies to help them less known. Wheather it is a reading, wirtten
expression, or any other difficulty is encountered by a child in school the
important thing for everyone to realize is that any child having difficulty
with school work needs to have early interventions started before testing is
done, or while waiting for the process for testing to begin. The trick is to
know that an LD is the cause and to implement the right interventions.
Testing is the next step. It has been my experienc at times that the
interventions tried before testing were not the right ones because they were
the wrong ones to correct the problem. I think this is frustrating to
parents/ teachers and most importantly to the student. Sorry this is a long
post, but in the end it is not so much a double standard as lack of knowlege
or recognition that a problem exists that is related to an LD.

SUBJECT:  Re:
Chat   Date:  97-03-02 15:58:48 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, is anyone interrested in a chat tonight. Just found out I am free for
the night. If anyone would like to chat . Meet in private room at 9pm EST.


SUBJECT:  Re: Chat   Date:  97-03-02 16:02:18 EST
From:  Mars000210

Sorry forgot to add meet in private room called LD.

SUBJECT:  Re:double standard?   Date:  97-03-02 16:19:57 EST
From:  Ratatat

Glyn... good vents!  :-)

SUBJECT:  Math and disgraphia   Date:  97-03-05 07:19:30 EST
From:  Joberyl

Hi. I'm looking for some advice about teaching Math to a disgraphic kid. I am
a regular ed teacher, and am currently frustrated. I'm wondering if we will
have more success if the child is allowed to record his responses rather than
write them. Forgive my ignorance, but this is my first experience with this
particular syndrome. Thanks.

SUBJECT:  Re:Math and disgraphia   Date:  97-03-05 07:44:13 EST
From:  SusanS29

"I'm wondering if we will have more success if the child is allowed to record
his responses rather than write them."

I'm not sure what you mean by "record." When he's younger,and just learning
his math facts, *any time* you can by-pass the motor skills -- do so.

For instance, one way that works well for practicing addition facts is to
have a set of cards with facts (not all of them!) -- and answers, mixed up.
They can be matched. You can throw in a few "wringers" if you want.

Turning the paper 90 degrees helps a lot for older children -- helps them
keep the columns straight. If visual perception is part of the problem,
writing the problem with a colored, fine-point magic marker helps... also any
other "structural guidelines, such as the subtraction bars in long division.

When multiplying by two digits I have the children multiply by the first
number using one color and the second number using a second color. Makes it
much clearer what's going on.

You can have them do complicated problems (such as "borrowing" with
four-digit numbers) at the board, using a different color of chalk for the
actual subtraction. Have five children do one problem, but each student does
*only one step.*

So if the problem is

   50613
 - 26736

The first child *only* draws a line through the 1, puts a zero and turns the
3 into 13. The next child subtracts 13 - 6.

The third child turns the 6 into 5 and the (now zero, not 1) into 10. The
fourth child subtracts 3 from 10.

This makes it more clear the "boundaries" of each step. Each child has to
*think* about what each child is doing, but doesn't have to *write* it all.
It forces them not to skip steps. All five children work very hard on the
problem, but their actual writing is reduced to 20 percent of what it would
have been.

SUBJECT:  Re:Math and disgraphia   Date:  97-03-05 09:19:24 EST
From:  Mars000210

As a dysgraphic myself and mother of three dysgraphic children we found that
most of the math problems we encountered had errors caused  when calculating
and transfering information. So we all use a calcultor even for simple math
problems, this eleminates time spent  wasted on pulling out rote information
and allowed us to concentrate on the math problem. Also having problems
already written on ditto paper helps when it can be provided. Allowing the
child to show the whole step by step process how he came to the answer for
two or three problems then just writing the answers for the other similar
problems helped with giving my girls  the extra time needed to finish.
Occasionally less math problems were needed to be done in the class setting,
class has to do 10 of each problem type and dysgrpahic child 5 of each type.
We found that for homework, that if we acted as secretary for our children
and wrote the problems out and our children had only to give us the correct
answer worked, In school this would be very hard i think as it is really one
on one type help. Graft paper should always be large squares also. When you
have difficulty wiriting putting any information in small space is asking for
errors. Hope this helps. My children are also dysnomic and verbal responces
would have been impossible to pull out. My last suggestion find what makes
learing the math facts easy for this child, ask him, does this seem easier if
we try this, my kids were always able to tell me if a new stratagie was
working or not.  Just to let you know my girls love math.

SUBJECT:  Re:Math and
disgraphia   Date:  97-03-05 12:45:22 EST
From:  KevisB

There is a new computer program out, I think it is by IntelliChoice?, but I
don't have the name of it at present. I can find out soon. I saw it at a
seminar I attended on keyboarding. It allows a student to do all kinds of
math problems on computer, by either pressing numbers or using the mouse to
point and click. It allows for carrying numbers from one column to another
for addition and subtraction problems, and showing work on multiplication and
division problems. In other words, it allows the student to go through the
computational process on computer that others would do with paper and pencil.
The classroom teacher can put in the problems the class is working with, or
the homework problems.

SUBJECT:  Re:Good new resource   Date:  97-03-09 23:21:37 EST
From:  Caitlin35

Mel Levine's latest book on learning disabilites has some excellent
information on dysgraphia--explaining it, and offereing startegies for
dealing with it at home and at school.  I can't remember the name, but will
try to get it--he must had 15 pages about it, more than most other LD books
give it!

SUBJECT:  Re:Good new resource   Date:  97-03-10 10:19:25 EST
From:  Ratatat

<<Mel Levine's latest book on learning disabilites has some excellent
information on dysgraphia->>

What's the name of this book?  Is it "Educational Care?"

SUBJECT:  Re:Good new
resource   Date:  97-03-11 11:42:14 EST
From:  Caitlin35

Yes, that's the one--Educational care.  There's more of a review of it over
on the Nonverbal Learning disorders board for 3/10, but I thought it was
really good. He covers SO much territory in a practical way, and puts in
nearly all the adaptations you can do for writing (except the trick of giving
NCD paper to student buddies for taking notes...but hey, nobody's
perfect!)

SUBJECT:  HELP!  Is this dysgraphia?   Date:  97-03-18 06:14:37 EST
From:  LoMo4UBAH

My kindergarten son has been exhibiting great fine-motor difficulties.  A
recent visit to a pediatric neuro led to the following comments:   "
significant difficulties w/fine motor coordination, particulatly motor
planning...abundantly clear he is unable to reproduce lower case
letters...significant visual integration problem along with motor planning
disorder resulting in near inability to print in upper and lower case
letters....no evidence of cognitive difficulties, attentional problems or
other potential learning disabilities>"

He is a really bright kid...reading well into the first grade level...knows
all letters, upper and lower case, can recognize them in a wide variety of
scripts, etc...but has intense difficulty reproducing them.  The term has not
been used by anyone but me, but isn't this dysgraphia?  All posts greatly
appreciated!

SUBJECT:  Re:HELP!  Is this dysgraphia   Date:  97-03-18 18:24:52 EST
From:  Ratatat

<<The term has not been used by anyone but me, but isn't this dysgraphia? >>

The word dysgraphia comes from "dys" - meaning difficulty functioning, and
"graphia" - the root for writing.  So, someone who is dys-graphic is someone
who has great difficulty with the act of writing.

SUBJECT:  Re:HELP!  Is this
dysgraphia   Date:  97-03-19 09:13:27 EST
From:  Mars000210

The difinition is right on target . I have always discussed what it feels
like to have a disability. Anyone can see, even here ( watch my sentence
structure in posts,and spelling) what my disability looks like. Be glad you
don't have to read my hand writing :). My children and I have always
discussed this aspect. As we have not only dysgraphia, but dysnomia as well
it is interresting to note we all feel the same way. It is like having a
computer without the monitor. Their are no mental pictures while producing
the written or spoken word. It is like being word blind. You know the
information is there but must search for it without a monitor to view your
progress. What does this mean to a child, a feeling of bewilderment when the
correct answer appears. Anyone with any other observations.

SUBJECT:  Re:HELP!
Is this dysgraphia   Date:  97-03-19 09:19:17 EST
From:  Mskh4H1

I found my son's discription very fascinating.  He says he thinks mostly in
pictures.  He says a lot of time he has an idea in his mind which is like a
beautiful scroll.  When he tries to put in words, it's like touching the
scroll and it disintegrates.  Wondering if this is a common experience???
MSK

SUBJECT:  Re:HELP!  Is this dysgraphia   Date:  97-03-19 13:43:11 EST
From:  Mars000210

I was discussing at an ADD chat and that is how they described how they think
, pictures all the time, brain in overdrive with thoughts and pictures. I
don't know if that applies to your son, it is just what several ADD people
have expressed to me. Could your son have dysgrpahia, I don't know, testing
would show if he does. How is his hand writing? Is it slopy , has trouble
making the letters, is content short, correct content but sentax is off or
leaves out important words which would add the the meaning of the
sentence?

SUBJECT:  Re:HELP!  Is this dysgraphia   Date:  97-03-19 17:36:16 EST
From:  Ratatat

<< He says he thinks mostly in pictures.  He says a lot of time he has an
idea in his mind which is like a beautiful scroll.  When he tries to put in
words, it's like touching the scroll and it disintegrates.>>

My son, who's extremely visual (and verbal) had the hardest time getting his
ideas on paper.  We came up with the idea that his head was a VCR and *he*
could control the tape.  So, he'd run it forward on play, then pause it to
describe the picture for as long as he needed.  Play again.... pause, etc...
At first we did this with me taking dictation at the keyboard.  He now does
this himself.  We also worked hard of "spitting it out" and "cleaning it up
later."  We have many instances where a paper took as many as 20 drafts.  The
more the better - and in fact, it seemed that the more drafts the higher the
grade he'd get.

SUBJECT:  Help  And  Support    Date:  97-04-12 07:05:32 EST
From:  C Blatt

    Help   and support can be found for  dsygraphia, discalcuia or  dyslexia
adn i have only named a few sypmtoms of a specified LD.  However you have to
want the support and help.    If you  do  then go to  the  developmental
disabilty board through the disabilty section of  Better Health and Medical
netowrk look  for the New Folder titled  LD  Mutal  Support  please read
Welcome   and then type away.   The support can be   there be we have to
voice that we want it.

SUBJECT:  Help!   Date:  97-04-12 12:14:56 EST
From:  TWitt2290

I teach in a resource room and have never had a student diagnosed with
dysgraphia.  I'm sure many of my students could have been.  Do school
psychologists make this diagnosis frequently?
A new student to me is in third grade and has almost unreadable handwriting.
He holds his pencil strangely and makes most of his letters incorrectly.  Is
he too old for me to change how he holds his pencil or how he writes?
Actually when I give him specially lined paper his writing is neater.
Another reason his writing is so hard to read is that his phonetic and
spelling skills are so poor.  Where should I begin to help him?

SUBJECT:
Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-13 19:32:01 EST
From:  SusanS29

"I teach in a resource room and have never had a student diagnosed with
dysgraphia.  I'm sure many of my students could have been.  Do school
psychologists make this diagnosis frequently?"

No, TW, because "dysgraphia" isn't recognized in I.D.E.A.

"Is he too old for me to change how he holds his pencil or how he writes? "

My experience -- it's not too late to teach him to write. Start with
large-motor, and progress down. One letter at a time, with lots of review. I
wouldn't worry about the pencil grip; in my experience that becomes "fixed"
in the brain pretty quickly. Concentrate on the legibility of the
writing.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-13 23:02:59 EST
From:  Mars000210

I just thought I would add a hint from the parents side of dysgraphia, it is
nice to try and remediate the handwriting to a legable degree, but don't
forget no matter what a child writes should be praised.  Dysgraphia makes
writing so difficult and as a child you don't realise that it is not
difficult for the other students, only that you can't keep up, or can't
spell. There is so much effort in trying wirte that the content suffers.
Writing must have a purpose for these children, and that they must feel that
they are conveying what they know. Even if the sentences are short and
illegiable.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-14 11:19:19 EST
From:  KevisB

Re comments of  Mars000210   I totally agree that the child does not
understand that physically doing writing is not so difficult for everyone.
They often equate "slowness" with stupidity, and there is no reason why they
shouldn't, when advancing to the next level in math, for example, means
writing the answers to a sheet of problems correctly within a certain time
period, a method used by some teachers in 1st grade.

Remediating the handwriting is great, but there also needs to be some
education of the elementary teachers to stop testing knowledge mastery by
using written timed tests.

My son's resource teacher used dictation as a reward for effort spent on
handwriting tasks and keyboarding. That is, after working hard on those
dreary and difficult ( for him) tasks, he could dictate a story or an essay
to her for her to write or type. He loved doing this, as it helped to show
him that the problem was not what was in his head, but the means he had
available to express it. He loved to reread the dictation aloud to us, and it
really helped to show him he could compose just as well as anyone else.

SUBJECT:
Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-15 09:33:50 EST
From:  Mars000210

what a wonderfull teacher to think of this creative way to enhance your
childs self esteem. Take care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-18 21:12:37 EST
From:  Wtree5

I'm fascinated by all the posts.  My son is dysgraphic, but I didn't know the
name or syndrome until recently reading all these messages in various areas.
We wondered about a variety of learning disabilities; but it remained a
mystery: He just "couldn't write"! (Although he reads, performs and tests
very high in every other area).  Through the years we found a variety of
coping methods  -- mainly involving dictation, as he  absorbs information
like a sponge and is very verbal.  Dictation lets him get the information
out; lets him share his knowlege; lets him feel proud.  ie: for a book
report, we make an outline together.  Then he dictates, using the outline as
his guidline and adding or subtracting as he goes.  It is hard to write fast
enough to keep up! Recently we found that if  I  read back to him  what he
dictated to me, his writing is much more fluid.  Almost as if he can write,
or think, but not simultaneously.  We're thinking of trying a recording
device so that he could record into it, and then "dictate" back to himself.
Anyone have experience with this?

SUBJECT:  gifted/Dysgraphic   Date:  97-04-18 21:21:17 EST
From:  Wtree5

  Are the requirements for entrance into gifted programs different for
LD/Classified children?  If we have more qualified children for our school's
gifted program than the program can accomodate, should I assume that
gifted/non-LD children's entry into the program would superscede that of a
gifted LD kid?  Should/could testing for entry be modified for a gifted LD
child, if that child's IEP calls for testing modification in general?

SUBJECT:
Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-19 08:19:36 EST
From:  SusanS29

"He just "couldn't write"! (Although he reads, performs and tests very high
in every other area).  "

I have a daughter like that who is now a senior in college.

You may find that his physical ability to write improves at puberty. That's
due to final brain development which begins at puberty.

That said, she still prefers writing with a computer. She plans to take a
laptop at college and to use her laptop for written tests in class, taking
notes, etc. as well as outside writing assignments.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-19 08:21:28 EST
From:  SusanS29

"Almost as if he can write, or think, but not simultaneously."

That, my friend, is dysgraphia in a nutshell. It happens to all of us to a
small degree, and for all of us, our re-write is better than our first
attempt (hence the dreadded "rough draft") -- but for the dysgraphic student
these difficulties are extreme and usually accompanied by a history of marked
difficulty learning letter shapes, reversals, difficulty organizing
information on paper, etc.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-19 08:22:34 EST
From:  SusanS29

:I have a daughter like that who is now a senior in college."

Whoops! She isn't growing up THAT fast...

She's a senior in HIGH SCHOOL.    :)

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-19 19:47:21 EST
From:  Wtree5

Dear SusanS29, Thank you for your response.  It's nice to think that he might
"outgrow"  dysgraphia. His class this year is doing a lot of journal writing,
and his teacher made it clear that he was "free" in the journal to write any
way and everyway he could and not to worry about spelling and punctuation --
that seems to help.  So this year he is writing more, and it is more legible,
and he seems a little more relaxed about the process.  I'm also encouraged by
all the posts which mention laptops, computer/writing programs etc.  We
installed Mario Teaches Typing the other day, and he's been having fun with
that.  My son tells me that he's heard there will soon be a computer on the
market which will print out what you SAY to it!!  That is his Dream
Machine!!!  He is in fourth grade, and has recently been "classified" LD and
has started receiving resourch room help for an hour each day.  This consists
of cursive writing drills, phonics (although he tested 98th% in Broad Reading
and 99% in comprehension on the Woodcock  Johnson, he was 44% in word attack
and 25% in writing samples.  The Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test came out
with a standard score equivalent  of 152 (99%+).  Also, he does some writing
composition work in the resource room.  But what he likes best is that he is
allowed to dictate the essay-type answers on tests, and is graded for content
--  not marked down for spelling and punctuation.  (Although, I would like to
say that all of his teachers through the years have been lenient  in that
respect even before he was classified.)  From what I've read on the posted
messages  on this board, and on some others, this approach seems good,
although the teacher tells me she has not heard of "dysgraphia". (I will give
her directions to this AOL area -- she seems open to all suggestions...)  I
really, really appreciate all the information I found here and there on these
boards:  I stayed up almost all night when I first stumbled upon these
posts!!!!!!  My main concern is for my son's frustration:  He is so strong
with words, reading, vocabulary etc., that it is very frustrating for him not
to be able to write:  He sees his classmates writing fluently, and he feels
stupid.  I understand you have written a book -- I will look for it.  I am
warmed by the compassion you show in your postings -- and enlightened (and
lightened-up) by your knowlege.  Thank you, thank you thank you.

SUBJECT:
Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-19 20:12:29 EST
From:  Wtree5

"usually accompanied by marked difficulty learning letter shapes...etc."
Forgot to remark that, yes, this was the case with our son, too.  He is very
bright, plus confident socially and has very good conversational skills  and
loves giving oral reports etc.,  so that until he reached a grade level where
writing became more demanding and crucial; even though we and his teachers
knew he was having difficulty, it was possible to think that he would just
"catch up" with the writing --  which didn't/hasn't yet happened.  He also
didn't "get" reading  by the whole language method, but caught up and forged
ahead quickly after private phonics tutoring.  He still doesn't read much to
himself, but will spend hours with books on tape and being read -out- loud-
to by us (Mom and Dad).  Do dysgraphic kids generally not enjoy reading
silently to themselves?  One teacher suggested that she thought that the more
time he spent reading, the more familiar he would become with the conventions
of writing (ie) the way words look, sentence and paragraph strcture,
punctuation, etc.  That seems to make sense, yet if he can read well
already... but just doesn't gravitate towards it...?  I always thought,
"He's a 'people person' and silent, solitary reading is not his cup of tea,
compared to the family listening together" ..... But could there be a
connection between dysgraphia and not enjoying reading to oneself? P.S.  Is
your daughter comfortable using the laptop at school;  did she ever
feel"stupid" because of writing difficulties?  If so, how did you help her
with that? Thanks again.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-19 23:52:13 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, I have three children with dysgaphia and dysnomia. I too have these
LD's. From my point of view with the reading that there may be another area
related possibly to another LD. You may need to explore that. We are a family
of readers, but I knew that my youngest didn't gravitate to reading. She
enjoyed being read too, but I still knew there was something else going on.
We have over the years discovered that she does in fact have a reading
problem but is more related to her literal interpertaion of reading and
finding the main points when reading, she also likes to read books or
articles with a lot of white space in between. So what I am trying to say is
there can be many reasons why your son may not pick up a book. Testing may
find the answer or you may have to look for reasons other then traditonal
reasons why he may find this area difficult. Most LD's don't stand alone.
It's like a grab bag you may get a lot of this and a little of that. Trick is
to find solutions that make learning easier. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 09:16:04 EST
From:  Wtree5

Thanks Barb!  He does wear bifocals, and while the opthamologist thinks that
his vision shouldn't hinder reading, the vision-testing optomotrist says he
has some tracking problems although not severe; but perhaps under these
circumstances reading is laborious enough to avoid, although he can read out
loud to me very well, and sometimes  enjoys reading to himself.  His
evaluation testing and classification was done not too long ago, and I'm
still sifting through the information and trying to understand.  Based on the
reading test scores, he is a great reader  and comprehends well.  But I have
been reading his textbooks to him for the last two years as well as his
pleasure reading.  His test scores make me wonder if we are in a cosy habit
of reading together, and if we should pull back from it somewhat, and let his
love of story and content cause him to seek out reading for himself?  To some
extent, it seems to me, reading is a habit (and at the moment, his is a
reading-together habit), and that it is also an excercise -- that is, the eye
muscles are either used for reading or not -- couldn't the act of reading
itself increase eye musculature, thus making reading physically easier, and
thus, back to what that teacher suggested, giving the student more ability to
actually SEE sentence structure and word formations and thereby increase
aptitude for writing?  I guess my question is still:  Is there a relationship
between dysgraphia and the act of reading?  Do dysgraphic kids generally
avoid reading, or read less than other kids, even if they are able to read
well? Does anyone know dygraphic kids who are avid readers?  Although my son
LOVES to be read to, even while I read, he avoids "following along", whereas
my daughter  follows along quite a bit even though she is just beginning to
read.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 14:48:22 EST
From:  Mars000210

I am not an expert, but from what i have read dysgraphia isn't a reading
problem and that holds out for me and my two other daughters. They read books
all the time. I was not an avid reader when in elementary school, but took
off in middle school. So my experience with four of us who are dysgraphic
,reading is not the issue. Where dysgraphia will impact is how much
information you will note in written assignments. It will be short in
content. Syntax may be off as well as spelling. Papers may have spelling
mistakes, even on words that were spelled correctly on spelling tests.
Punctuation is another area that will be have mistakes. Why not post a
message on the messages boards for reading disabilities and explore there.
Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 17:42:01 EST
From:  SusanS29

" My son tells me that he's heard there will soon be a computer on the market
which will print out what you SAY to it!! "

They're working on it, but I just saw a review of such programs in BUSINESS
WEEK and they really got panned. Really -- even if the computer "hears" you
clearly -- how does it tell between "to," "too" and "two?"

If your son doesn't have an AOL name, I would suggest getting him a screen
name. Read some of the posts at keyword IMH about ADD. Ithink you'll find
people looking for pen pals for their children. That's a very safe way for
them to use the "Internet," and will encourage the typing.

Don't worry if he "hunts and pecks." He'll learn to touch type eventually.

Thanks for the kind words.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 17:43:12 EST
From:  SusanS29

"One teacher suggested that she thought that the more time he spent reading,
the more familiar he would become with the conventions of writing (ie) the
way words look, sentence and paragraph strcture, punctuation, etc.  "

I'm sure she means well, but the brain functions are *entirely* different.
Reading is very good for him, but can't and won't do that.   :/

SUBJECT:
Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 17:45:13 EST
From:  SusanS29

"the vision-testing optomotrist says he has some tracking problems although
not severe; but perhaps under these circumstances reading is laborious enough
to avoid, although he can read out loud to me very well, and sometimes
enjoys reading to himself."

Double-check with the opthamologist. There isn't anything an optometrist
knows about eyes and vision that the opthamologist doesn't know.
Unfortunately some of what an optometrist thinks he or she "knows" just isn't
true.

The opthamologist can tell you if there really is a "tracking" problem
(children with ADD, for instance, will look that way sometimes because their
eyes are as impulsive as anything else about them)... and if it needs to be
worked with.

The Optometry connection to learning problems is *way* overblown,
unfortunately.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 17:45:54 EST
From:  SusanS29

"I am not an expert, but from what i have read dysgraphia isn't a reading
problem and that holds out for me and my two other daughters."

That's true -- but there's nothing in dysgraphia to protect a child from
having reading problems also. I have taught children who had both.

SUBJECT:
Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 18:26:42 EST
From:  Wtree5

Many thanks to all of you!  It is very helpful to talk with people who have
experience and knowlege!  Perhaps he will "love to read" when he's older --
he certainly loves literature already -- as long as he's not the one doing
the reading!!   Oh well, that's okay: Ilove reading & will just keep on doing
it out loud -- it's fun for all of us anyway.  I am glad to hear that there
isn't really a connection between avid reading and dysgraphia as I didn't
look forward to trying to "make" him read more!

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 18:33:11 EST
From:  Wtree5

Yes, Barb -- your descriptiopn of the writing style  definitely describes my
son's!!  Plus, he can talk or dictate beautifully, without any of those kinds
of difficulties.  From what I've read in all these messages and in all the
replies to my postings, DYSGRAPHIA seem to be IT.  I don't feel so challenged
after reading all these experiences.  You wouldn't like to know how many
hours I've spent in libraries over the past few years reading descriptions of
school and learning difficulties that didn't match up with my child.  It's
comforting to think that this isn't such a mystery  -- just another part of
the many ways we humans are!

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-20 18:48:02 EST
From:  Wtree5

My son just came in and I told him about this message board.  He has asked me
to type while he adds some information:  "I can think just as well if not
better than all the other kids.  I just can't write.  They won't let me
dictate in class, and I wish I could dictate everything.  When I try to
write, it's like I can't write what I'm thinking.  I can think of tons of
things to write, but I lose track of it while trying to write it down. Advice
for other kids who read this:   Ask the teacher, beg the teacher until she
lets you dictate.  Parents:  Let your kids dictate their homework to you."


SUBJECT:  5th grader non-reader/writer   Date:  97-04-20 22:59:43 EST
From:  Stephenr

I'm new, so I hope I'm not repeating previously posted questions!!  I'm a
speech/language path. working with a self-contained class of severe s/l
delayed students. One of my male students is unable to read or write at the K
level (he's in 5th).  He is also severely apraxic and people can't understand
much of what he says.  Are there any suggestions for me as to how to help
this child? He is reduced to tears whenever the 'simplest' written paper is
put before him.  How can we help him to become a 'functional'
reader/writer??????

Thanks!

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-21 00:30:07 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hi, to the son who is adding to the message. Guess what that's my family in a
nut shell. Your brain goes ahead and your writing stays behind. We also are
dysnomic so we lose information, it's like going into a room and not
remembering what you went in there for ( so we forget our great thoughts
sometimes). Just remember you are smart, other kids smarts are just easier
for others see. Here's something to think about, every kid has something they
have to learn to do that is hard, What is hard for the student who doesn't
have an LD?. Trick is to learn to like learning and to like yourself.
Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:5th grader non-reader/wri   Date:  97-04-21 06:19:23 EST
From:  Ratatat

<One of my male students is unable to read or write at the K level (he's in
5th).>

I assume that he is seeing a certified learning disabilities specialist
within the school setting whose job it would be to help remediate his reading
problems.

If he's in fifth grade and is that panicked about writing why continue to
traumatize him?  If he has ideas in his head and is barred from expressing
them because of the writing problems, what other ways have been offered to
him for self-expression?  Does he have immediate access and use of a computer
or AlphaSmart?  What is being done?

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm confused about what is being done to help
this child other than speech/language therapy.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-21 09:00:17 EST
From:  SusanS29

" Plus, he can talk or dictate beautifully, without any of those kinds of
difficulties. "

That's an excellent informal measure of the dysgraphia's interference.

SUBJECT:
Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-21 09:01:14 EST
From:  SusanS29

WTree you have one sharp son.

The school does *not* have the right to force him to write, but you need a
diagnosis, and then you need an IEP or 504 plan. Read those folders here.
They will *really* help.

SUBJECT:  Re:5th grader non-reader/write   Date:  97-04-21 09:03:18 EST
From:  SusanS29

" He is reduced to tears whenever the 'simplest' written paper is put before
him.  How can we help him to become a 'functional' reader/writer??????"

Reading comes first, and then writing. If  he can't read, there's no way he
can write.

Has he had an OT evaluation? Maybe the dyspraxia isn't only speech-related.

To make suggestions about how to read, I'd have to know more about his
strengths, weaknesses, and best estimate of potential. All other things
equal, I would try a strictly visual approach -- but not knowing much about
him it's hard to make suggestions about how to do that.

Phonics would likely be a por way to start him out.

SUBJECT:  Re:5th grader
non-reader/wri   Date:  97-04-21 09:04:15 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hi, I agree with Ratatat. I am not a specialist, but if this was my child,
beside furthur testing. I would be looking at ways to allow him to show what
he knows. If he can't read,he should be read too ( he is losing
information,he needs to be able to learn, until he can do it for himself). I
would have him learn how to type. My childrens writing improved when they
were able to see what they had typed on the computer. By throwing the
sentences on the bigger screen and then letting me rewrite the sentences by
adding a few words my girls were able to see how to improve on what they
wrote. Another area I would look at as a parent/teacher, does he understand
the material that is verbally taught to him, that takes some exploring. Can
he tell you what he learned, in his own way, what is taught in shcool, if he
can do that, then he is learning. How about only reading the main points he
needs to know in his text books.  Why not take take one book and highlight
the right anserwers in each chater, then another student can work with him
and they just stress the main points which are hightlighted, send the book
home and the parents can continue the same stratagey. Have his parnets do
this, give them a study guide make it short. This is what he needs to learn
tonight, most text books have a lot general information that is nice to know
but the main idea is what a child who is already working too hard already
needs to remember. Send home dittos already filled out with the correct
anwers, so he can have them read to him as his homework assignment. If he
can't read to find the anwers for himself why put him through that torture.
So form my perspective, the child who can't read and write/ does not mean a
child who can't learn. Why the specialis'st figure out the way's to help him
learn to read and write don't let him lose out on learning what is taught in
class. Your very nice to care so much. My children were forunate to have many
teachers like you. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-21 12:05:25 EST
From:  KevisB

<< They won't let me dictate in class, and I wish I could dictate
everything.>>

 Just a note: IDEA covers "specific learning disability" in written
expression. Using this, you can get classroom modification to allow for
dictation as well as get some effective keyboarding instruction in his IEP.

<< Is there a relationship between dysgraphia and the act of reading?  Do
dysgraphic kids generally avoid reading, or read less than other kids, even
if they are able to read well? Does anyone know dygraphic kids who are avid
readers?>>

I agree that dysgraphia and dyslexia are not related; my dysgraphic son was
not an early reader, but reads constantly for pleasure now. He did
subvocalize when reading and writing for longer than average, which I think
has to do with his processing of aural information being much stronger than
for visual. Now he doesn't, and in 4th grade is at the highest level of
reading test which our district gives to 2nd through 12th grades. Whole
language was a very effective method of teaching reading for him, although he
did understand the letter sounds in preschool.

<<" My son tells me that he's heard there will soon be a computer on the
market which will print out what you SAY to it!! ">>

Regarding the computer which types what you dictate: We have IBM Voicetype,
which is one of the new programs for dictation. My son saw an ad for it and
said "I have to have that!" It was a huge disappointment. It works very
poorly. He did not have the patience to go through the "enrollment" process.
I did go through it and even though it improved the accuracy, I still find it
much easier to type and I am by no means a fast and accurate typist.

Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-21 16:49:40 EST
From:  Mars000210

On the www site ldonline.org. there is a section devoted to evaluaition of
new technology that realates to learning disabilities. It was mentioned there
that most of the programs that were for allowing a student to verbally
dictate their written work to a computer where not very helpfull. I would
suggest to parents to check out this site before spending there hard earned
cash. Barb


SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-21 20:23:37 EST
From:  Wtree5

Thanks again, everyone -- He  is classified & does have an IEP which does
state that he can dictate. He has only been going to resource room for a few
weeks, but tells me that he has not yet been dictating there.  I will read
the areas you suggest regarding IEP and 504 plans, and review his own IEP to
see how specific it is with regard to dictating.  As I remember it doesn't
state when, where, how etc. ; only that dictating would be one of the
resources avaiable to him.  I don't know what  <IDEA> is -- this is a new
name to me...?  He doesn't have a diagnosis of anything -- just  a statement
that the discrepancy between his high scores on the WISC, Woodcock Johnson
and Peabody Vocabulary  against the writing areas of the tests "indicate a
learning disability".  No particular disability is named.  To whom does one
go to get an actual diagnosis?  His classroom teacher and resource room
teacher are not familiar with the term dysgraphia.  Thanks again -- I'm off
to read about IEP etc.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 06:11:11 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I don't know what  <IDEA> is -- this is a new name to me...? >

IDEA is the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.  This is a federal
law that has elaborate regulations spelling out the rights and
responsibilities of the parents and the obligations of the schools.  It
ensures appropriate educational programming for students with disabilities so
that they can learn.

Each state encodes IDEA into state law, and can make the law more specific
and stronger...providing more protection that the federal law.  In some
states, like Michigan, the rules is that children are expected to have an
educational program where they will receive maximum benefit.  That is in
excess of what the federal law says.  So, you really need to know your own
state's particular "take" on IDEA regualtions.

There is a file here in the Special Education Forum Library that would be a
good place for you to begin learning this stuff.  Of course, the school was
supposed to advise you of all this stuff.

But, no matter.  You are here now, and in good hands.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 06:22:44 EST
From:  Ratatat

<He doesn't have a diagnosis of anything -- just  a statement that the
discrepancy between his high scores on the WISC, Woodcock Johnson and Peabody
Vocabulary  against the writing areas of the tests "indicate a learning
disability".  No particular disability is named.>

There are 13 categories of disabilities named under IDEA.  One of them is
"Specific Learning Disabilities."  Again, you need to check with your state
to know exactly how the define these things, but generally you can expect to
find *within* the category of Specific Learning Disabilities the following
list of specific learning disabilities:

oral expression, listening comprehension, written expression, basic reading
skill, reading comprehension, mathematics calculation, or mathematics
reasoning.

The IEP should specify one or more of those specific learning disabilities.

After the evaluation, the core of an IEP is what's called the "Current Level
of Performance." The part of an IEP should provide a "picture" of the child -
both strengths and weaknesses, including the specific learning disability.

This is the place from which one "designs" the IEP - around the individual
child's strengths and weaknesses and from his current level of performance,
and in order to meet that individual child's unique needs.

If you can get to the bookstore, you might want to pick up a copy of a book
that is very helpful explaining how all of this stuff *should* be done and
ways to design a good IEP, etc.  It's "Negotiating the Special Education
Maze," by Anderson, Chitwood and Hayden.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 09:05:53 EST
From:  SusanS29

"He has only been going to resource room for a few weeks, but tells me that
he has not yet been dictating there."

The idea about dictating is that it's how he gets his work done in the
classroom. The Resource Room might be a more appropriate place to continue to
develop his ability to write in more traditional ways.

He does need -- even with severe dysgraphia -- to be able to make grocery
lists, take phone messages, and fill out job applications.

"IDEA" is the law that governs IEP's.

"only that dictating would be one of the resources avaiable to him."

It needs to be stated more strongly: He will dictate any written assignments
that require more than 20 written words (short answer assignments, for
instance; definitions from books; as well as writing paragraphs).

"just  a statement that the discrepancy between his high scores on the WISC,
Woodcock Johnson and Peabody Vocabulary  against the writing areas of the
tests "indicate a learning disability".  No particular disability is named."

That is the legal statement the district has to make to demonstrate that your
child meets your state's definition of LD. (Be glad they take intelligence
into account -- lots of states don't.)

Look carefully on the IEP. Somewhere -- usually on the front page -- they
have to list the specific subjects affected by the learning disability.

"To whom does one go to get an actual diagnosis?"

You have an actual diagnosis. You're just not finding it in the kind of
language you expected.

We have been calling reading problems "dyslexia," math problems
"dyscalculia," and written expression problems "dysgraphia." But by federal
law, the schools *must* talk about reading, math and written expression. Same
thing, different words.

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 09:25:13 EST
From:  Wtree5

Thanks!  Last night I read the IEP section in this area and understand from
that, that If I had then known what I now know about dysgraphia, my son's IEP
would look different now!  I also understand that it is possible to get the
IEP changed.  I will start by requesting a meeting with his special ed.
teacher and discussing dysgraphia with her.   <The IEP should specify one or
more of those specific learning disabilities>  His IEP does not do that.  I
hope you don't mind if I make a lengthy post at this point to  display some
of what his IEP does say, and perhaps others here on this board wouldn't
mind. Comparing some IEP plans might be interesting for others who are
involved with dysgraphia........CLASSIFICATION: LD;
SPECIAL EDUCATION PROGRAM: resource room 5/1: min. l80 min./week; TESTING
MODIFICATIONS: time limit extended, special location, alternate aids to
record responses -- amanuensis, computer w/spellcheck, alternate computation
aids, short segments to reduce eye fatigue in lengthy testing situations.
MAINSTREAMING PERCENT: 80%;  RATIONALE FOR RECOMMENDATION/LRE STATEMENT:
Student's superior verbal and average performance skills (WISCIII) place him
in the above average range of intellectual potential.  His academic
achievements range from a high SS139 in Broad Knowledge to a low SS92 in
Written Language (Woodcock Johnson R).  This profile is indicative of a
person with a Learning Disability.  CSE recommended resource room services as
Least Restrictive Environment for this student.EDUCATIONAL ACHIEVEMENT AND
LEARNING RATE: psychological: WISCIII V123, Pl00, FSIQ ll3 (Previous private
testing  showed V132, P102, FSIQ 120)  READING:W-Jrevised G.E.10.0, SS
132.WRITING:W-Jrevised G.E. 3.2, SS92. TOWL-3:WLQ 79.  LANGUAGE: PVVT ss152.
TOLD-2  SLQ 121. MATHEMATICS: W-J revised G.E. 4.9, SS117.  BROAD KNOWLEDGE:
G.E. 8.6,  SS 139.    Beery; Gardner SS101; PQ 119.
ACADEMIC FUNCTIONING; very strong math, reading and broad knowledge skills.
Written language is relatively weak.  Study/organizatonal skills need
improvement.  ACADEMIC NEEDS:  to improve written language skills; to improve
study and organizational skills.  ANNUAL GOALS AND SHORT TERM
OBJECTIVES:(evaluated by teacher observation, criteria 80% or 4/5 trials)
WRITTEN LANGUAGE: STUDENT WILL IMPROVE WRITTEN EXPRESSION: student will write
a sentence of three or more words using appropriate syntax and grammar.
Student will write a sentence of four or more words using appropriate syntax
and grammar.  Student will write a cxompound sentece using appropriate syntax
and grammar.  READING/LANGUAGE ARTS: Student will demonstrate ability to use
phonetic analysis ((( the IEP then lists about 20 visual phonetics sounds
that he will identify visually and auditorily))).STUDENT WILL IMPROVE
ACCURACY OF SPELLING IN WRITTEN WORK (((then follows long list of ways in
which he will be able to spell, but which does include learning to use an
electronic spell check)))STUDENT WILL DEMONSTRATE IMPROVEMENT IN PRODUCING
CLEAR AND LEGIBLE WRITTEN WORK (((another long list, but which does include
keyboarding and wordprocessing in addition to handwriting)))  STUDENT WILL
DEVELOP AND DEMONSTRATE IMPROVEMENT IN WRITTEN LANGUAGE MECHANICS SUCH AS
GRAMMAR, APITALIZATION AND PUNCTUATION (((another long list)))).  Then follow
ideas for helping him to organize, ie lists of priorities etc; all of which
require writing. If he is dysgraphic, then these "goals" are inappropriate?
Except for the keyboarding/spellcheck, etc.??? What should I do/ ask
for?????????????


When I first saw this IEP I thought the goals listed sounded like a torture
session for my son.  I called the Director of Special ed. for our district,
who I knew from discussions for setting up the evaluation, etc.  I told him
that my husband and I thought that it sounded like a very wonderful "Wish
list", but we wondered how it could be accomplished?  We were told to
basically take a break and leave it in the hands of the professionals... But
his teachers have not heard of "dysgraphia"!

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 09:46:56 EST
From:  Wtree5

Thanks Susan -- I was writing my post while you were writing yours, so I just
now found yours:  I see what you mean -- I have a diagnosis, just not in the
language I expected -- the IEP does say "written language is relatively
weak".  That just doesn't sound specific, and it's more worrisome when
coupled with the fact both his classroom teacher and his special ed. teacher
tell me they have not heard of dysgraphia.  If someone who had no experience
with him read that, is wouldn't really tell the story.   And  just the word
"Amanuensis" under testing modifications doesn't really do the trick, because
it excludes all other situations besides tests.  I like your wording
suggestion very much, thanks.  He is able to write lists, and also performs
well on fill-in-the-blank tests.  So we need to be really specific about when
he can dictate.  Thanks -- you make it sound easy!

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 10:00:06 EST
From:  Wtree5

Maybe this is a minor point, but are "written language" and "expressive
language" legally the same concept?  Written language sound like handwriting,
which in my son's case is pretty good -- it's the expression of ideas in
written language that he can't do.  (As you know).  His IEP mentions written
language, not expressive language. I wonder, because of all the  handwriting
drills he's doing in his resource room.  He can write words perfectly well;
putting them together in sentences and paragraphs to express his thoughts is
the difficulty....

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 14:01:53 EST
From:  KevisB

Wtree5: if you haven't already, I suggest you look at the Nonverbal Learning
Disorder folder in this forum. You might find it helpful.

Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 14:16:34 EST
From:  KevisB

<<Maybe this is a minor point, but are "written language" and "expressive
language" legally the same concept?>>
I don't know legally, but I don't think it is a minor point. Dysgraphia is a
broad term that has to do with the end result of a process: writing. If
someone has only problems with fine motor skills, he/she can be "dysgraphic."
If someone has a processing difficulty causing it to be difficult to put
words on paper, he/she can also be "dysgraphic," but the services of an
occupational therapist might not be needed for fine motor skills if the
handwriting is fine. Different remediations and accommodations would be
required and that is what needs to be in the IEP.



SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 14:58:57 EST
From:  Wtree5

Thanks Kevis -- I will read there.  I am new to the net and still exploring
-- all sugestions are great.
Yes, I see what you mean re: small motor skills -- he was O.T. tested as part
of the evaluation and came up fine -- good small motor skills; so you are
right -- it would be the processing that is the problem; although the OT said
that he has loose ligaments that will strengthen as he grows up.

SUBJECT:
Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 23:03:58 EST
From:  SusanS29

" But his teachers have not heard of "dysgraphia"!   "

Sure they have. They call it Written Expression, and the goals address that
problem. You have to get past the vocabulary, friend... :)

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-22 23:05:10 EST
From:  SusanS29

"Maybe this is a minor point, but are "written language" and "expressive
language" legally the same concept? "

Expressive language means *spoken* language. I think you're asking very good,
very sensible questions. Bravo!

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-23 08:11:02 EST
From:  Wtree5

Thanks -- seemslike I need a dictionary of special ed. terminology -- I think
it's time for another trip to the library!

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!   Date:  97-04-23 08:12:24 EST
From:  SusanS29

"Thanks -- seemslike I need a dictionary of special ed. terminology -- I
think it's time for another trip to the library!"

Won't help, Wtree.

Here are the terms the school will use:

Learning disabled in the area of reading, math or written expression. There
are sub-sections in reading and math.

That's it. No fancy jargon to learn.

SUBJECT:  Re: 5thgrade nonreader/write   Date:  97-04-23 09:12:00 EST
From:  Stephenr

Wow!

Thanks so very much to all who responded to my plea!!  Barb, thanks for the
kind words.  I guess in my haste to pick your collective brains, I left out
some important information.  This child is enrolled in a self contained
language disorders classroom which is taught by an LD certified teacher.  His
IQ is approx. 85.  We try to include our students where ever possible with
'regular' education peers.  Ratatat, you were right - we are trying not to
torture him with constant drills in reading or writing!  We DO, however, want
him to be able to read basic, functional material.  Susan, thanks to you also
- I've been enjoying all of your expertise!

Thanks again!
Pat

SUBJECT:  Re: Adaptive shoelaces   Date:  97-04-23 22:37:33 EST
From:  SNova187

I am a Mother of a child with severe motor planning problems manifesting in
problems with writing and other fine motor skills.  I am looking for an
adaptive shoelace that allows a child to twist the laces to tye them.  We are
working on the skill of tying with the OT, Resource Teachers, and home but in
the meantime she is being picked on by other children and the daycare staff.
I have seen a child with this at my own school, but I haven't been able to
ask her Mom where she found the laces.  If anyone has a source for the laces
please let me know Independence is the goal.

SUBJECT:  Re: Adaptive shoelaces   Date:  97-04-24 21:06:02 EST
From:  McCarthyA

You might try a catalog called "OT Ideas."  They have a "bow-tie" bunny that
has two-colored laces.  You match the color on the laces to the colors on the
bunny's ears.  I haven't tried it, but I saw one in our OT's office and she
said it worked well.  I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for.  If
it is, email me and I'll give you the catalog information.

SUBJECT:  Re: Adaptive
shoelaces   Date:  97-04-24 21:08:56 EST
From:  McCarthyA

Also, you might try "curly laces."  We buy them at the local StrideRite and
they work well.  You don't have to do anything but pull them tight for the
shoes to stay on.  For the sake of neatness you can twist them to look
"tied."  They are, as the name implies, laces that spiral around due to an
elastic interior.  They are a mainstay of our kindergarten class, and not
just the kids with poor fine motor skills.

SUBJECT:  Re: weak pencil grip/writing   Date:  97-04-26 17:21:21 EST
From:  Mithue

My kindergarteners love drawing in fingerpaint! Put a tablespoon in a clear
zip-loc freezer bag and seal it up. Lay the bag flat on the table and
wah-lah, clean, dry fingerpaint to draw numbers, letters, shapes, etc.! No
clean up either.

SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-03 01:54:31 EST
From:  Mars000210

What does dysgraphia mean to you?
Here's my version: Dysgraphia in the literal sence means difficulty with
writing. There are many  sutulties to having dysgraphia. Some may be motor
related ( slopy handwriting/ slow handwriitng), Some may have difficulty with
putting thier thoughts on paper ( content is short/ answers and work is
incomplete).
   There is part of what I think dysgraphia is, now is your turn. :)
Barb

SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-05 19:54:09 EST
From:  SusanS29

To me, unless it includes some sort of motor involvement, it isn't
dysgraphia. Kids can be LD in the area of written expression without being
dysgraphic.

To me, dysgraphia means that the actual process of using pen or pencil and
paper is very problemmatic.

SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-06 08:09:37 EST
From:  Ratatat

<To me, dysgraphia means that the actual process of using pen or pencil and
paper is very problemmatic.>

That's what I always thought too.  And, not just messy, hurried handwriting,
but a true struggle with the actual "manual" task of writing letters.

SUBJECT:
Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-06 09:13:49 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hmm that's how I viewed it in the begining too. My oldest daughter has great
looking handwriting yet she is clearly dysgraphic, speed wise she writes at
third grade level, content is accurate and descriptive. Writing is laborus
for us all. I think that it is the grap bag affect no one is purly
dysgraphic. Besides letter formation there is the added problem that your
hand  writting can't keep up with your thoughts. How do you seperate all the
peices? If content is short it may well be not only the letter formation and
speed, but the inability to write fast enough to keep up with your thoughts.


SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-06 10:09:30 EST
From:  CHSMom

I concur - How do you separate all the pieces?  My son has difficulty in both
areas.  How does one get a diagnosis of dysgraphia? Who does the diagnosis?
I know that legally I don't "need" to have him diagnosed, but in
practicality, I need to be able to prove to the schools that he is not
neurologically capable of doing what they expect him to do.  I'm also trying
to pursue a diagnosis or NVLD.  I know all the "should's" and "have to's",
but the reality is that it hasn't been that way.  Thanks.

SUBJECT:  Re: Food for
thought   Date:  97-05-06 13:36:27 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, the tests that showed my daughters dysgraphia was diagnosed within
this portion of the following tests :  Preceptual-motor speed and efficiency
as measured by the Bender Gestalt Test, WISC-III, and an informal assesment
of their handwriting. This lead to the diagnosis of dysgraphia. The dysnomia
was diagnosed at a later date as well as a diagnosis of CAP.

SUBJECT:  Re: Food
for thought   Date:  97-05-06 23:10:40 EST
From:  SusanS29

" I think that it is the grap bag affect no one is purly dysgraphic. "

That's also true of the things we call "dyslexia" and "dyscalculia." Many
elements go into each.

Some kids with "dyscalculia" do very well with the concepts but have
tremendous difficulty with the calculations. For others it's just the
reverse.

SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-06 23:11:41 EST
From:  SusanS29

"I concur - How do you separate all the pieces?  My son has difficulty in
both areas."

You don't have to... :)

You figure out that it's "dysgraphia." Then you look to see where it breaks
down for *that* child, and you either remediate, or find "work arounds," or
both. This is also true for reading and math problems -- not just written
expression.

SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-07 07:51:31 EST
From:  Ratatat

< My oldest daughter has great looking handwriting yet she is clearly
dysgraphic, speed wise she writes at third grade level,>

This describes my son in third grade.  The most precise, careful and
perfectly formed letters you've ever seen.  But it took him FOREVER!  Almost
as if he were "drawing" each letter (he's a brilliant artist).

Every one worked has encouraging him with his speed.  The result is a chicken
scratch that only those with training can read!  <grin>  That's how he writes
to this day (17 years old).

Thank God for computers and word processing.

One of the "tricks" that helped him (and me) the very most was learning to
get his main ideas out quickly with cluster outlining,  bubble outlining
(whatever you want to call it).  He tended to design outlines that looked
like a wheel - central idea being the hub with lots of "spokes" leading to
the main points, and then with supporting ideas connected to them.  Once he'd
"spit it all out quickly" he would go over his wheel and using colors
re-prioritize them.

Often, at this point, he would simply sit beside me at the computer and start
talking, and I would take dictation from him.  After that point, the editing
was up to him.  Our biggest challenge was to get him comfortable with the
idea of multiple revisions.  Mr. Perfectionist wanted it to be "just so" the
first time around.

SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-08 08:06:12 EST
From:  Mars000210

Chicken scratch is the handwriting we are most familar with also ( I should
have been a doctor line is used a lot with me at work :):).
    My oldest is an artist also. She has gone back to school for grafic art,
but has been drawing for free for anyone who asks her over the years.
    Your right the computer unlocks a lot of doors for my children.
     Dictating has also been an important key to keeping up with their ideas
before they lose them. It also helps them with the dysnomia, as they can
think of the main idea, but will spend a lot of time describing the words
they can't pull out. As the main transcritionist for them I supply the word
they want to use. This really cuts down on the girls frustration level. So
writing is not the chore it could be.
     The main problem I have noticed this year is that the teachers now
really notice how hard it is for the girls to write a complete sentence when
ansering quizes and dittos so they tell the girls to only write a couple of
words. This is great time saver, but then they don't remember the material as
well when they need to recall it later and I've noticed a tendency to write
shorter assignments when more would be appropreate to the assignment. So
there always seems to be a darned if you do and darned if you don't component
to every intervention. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-08 11:48:00 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Ratatat and Barb - your situations are oh so familiar.  In addition to what
you have done, here are a couple of things we have tried with success.
Regarding the actual activity of handwriting - we dropped cursive.  Our
daugher learned it well, but drew every letter.  It was sooooo slow, that we
had her go back to printing.  Now, in her 504 Plan she has printing vs.
cursive and pencil vs. pen (pencil so she can self-correct, although
sometimes she uses Eraser-Mate pens).  For final draft composition, she
dictates to me on the computer.  She's in 6th grade and it's working very
well.  We'll keep doing this until she's proficient enough to use a computer
in class and at home.  Also regarding essay answers - we use graphic
organizers wherever possible.  For compare and contrast I set up a "T" format
with headings and lists under each, for something like explaining life under
a dictator, we bullet out the answer.  She studies it this way, then
replicates it on her test.  I say replicates because that's exactly what she
does.  Is she learning?  I doubt it, but different story, different day.  In
any event, graphic organizers for essay questions is also in her Plan.
Sounds simple, but until it was WRITTEN into her plan, we had no cooperation
and her grades suffered.  Just more "stuff" for the pot...Pam

SUBJECT:  Re:
Food for thought   Date:  97-05-09 08:03:54 EST
From:  Mars000210

    Having specific interventions in the IEP is essential. At the team
meeting I always explained the reason why we needed to be that picky.
    We have also found that the girls print faster then they print, but they
do a combination of both at times. when reading posts over the past few years
have noted that printing or cursive should be childs choice, as some children
have find on style easier then the other.
     As you have done the girls only use a pencil, no pen. A good note taker
has also helped with their study skills, we have always stressed that the
child who volunteers for this must have clear, concise notes. The girls use
these as their outline to study from.
     Has anyone done an observation of their child in school and noted how
often they switch thier head and body position. I found pointing this out
helps the teachers understand why they miss some of the information. It
involves the switching that takes place in the brain from left to right
hemisphere's. When this occurs the child must repostion themselves to
accomedate the writing process and thus lose information till the body
neropathways realign to the new positon. My youngest and oldest can tell me
when it is happening at times, now that they are older. They state they feel
different , either left or right handed. Just another thought Barb



SUBJECT:  Re: Food for thought   Date:  97-05-09 18:50:17 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Barb - I've never heard of the body repositioning issue - fascinating.  We
have a BIG problem in our school doing observations, but I'll ask one of the
teachers who are supportive to watch for it.  Thanks for the info.

SUBJECT:  Re:
Food for thought   Date:  97-05-09 23:11:00 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, also tell them to watch for how often they have to look back and forth
when copying from a book or overhead. That's missed a lot by observers. I
counted one of my daughters looking up and down thirteen times when answering
the one drill question on the board. The school's trained observer didn't
even notice.. The repostioning is more subtle, it is more shifting of the
head and slight shift of body and paper, but it is noticable if your looking
for it. My middle child gets arround the body shift by sitting on the edge of
her chair and scrunching her body over her papers (it works for her). Only
problem occasionally get a teacher who rights us telling us she needs her
glasses checked ( even when she was wearing new glasses).
     This was important to understand, teachers who wanted the girls to sit
feet straight on the floor, backs straight were really impeding the girls
ability to cope. It's not a major issue, but every little bit helps, also
cuts down on the notes for glasses :) Barb



SUBJECT:  Re: Little handy tip   Date:  97-05-10 00:49:43 EST
From:  Caitlin35

Something we've done recently has helped our 12 year old--it's just buying a
clipboard that stands up by itself and he keeps it next to him during
schooltime. We clip all the papers he needs on there for a work session so he
can glance back and forth more easily than from a flat notebook up to the
scree of the computer. Also, we've been reminding him to use a bigger
typeface as it is easier for him to re-read and proofread.-kathy

SUBJECT:  Body
Repositioning   Date:  97-05-10 02:24:22 EST
From:  Willsons

Barb,
Thank you for sharing that insight. I am a Speech & Language Therapist who
works in the same room as an OT and a PT, and I know they structure their
therapy to address such issues. Your explanation will help me be more
observant and understand what is going on with a student.
It reminded me, and I tell this lovingly and with a chuckle, of a student I
had today who was so into repositioning himself that at one point, he was
lying across two chairs with his head hanging down, happily responding to my
explanations about some comparatives he had used incorrectly. I know you are
not suggesting your daughters behave in this extreme manner, and I know we
must set parameters, but this child has had many failures and confrontations,
and we did have a great lesson  - what a comical sight!
Your comments also reminded me of our NLP training that taught us that at
times people need to look away from the speaker, or even close their eyes, in
order to hear, and teachers should be less quick to accuse them of not paying
attention.
Thanks again, Barb.
Sue

SUBJECT:  Re:Body Repositioning   Date:  97-05-10 07:51:34 EST
From:  Mars000210

Sue, the looking away part is also right on the money. We all do that also.
If I look at a person when they are speaking to me I can't register what the
person is saying. I hear them but can't keep it in my short term memory. This
could be a problem when a child is little in school, or even with social
interactions. It does appear to others that you aren't really paying
attention to them. It is nice to get into the habit of recaping the
conversation to the other person, they then know you were paying attention.
As an adult I just tell them flat out why I don't look directily at the other
person when they are speaking. Kids won't do that at an early age, but should
at sometime learn a way of letting others know they are interrested and
listening to the other person. Barb


SUBJECT:  lost   Date:  97-05-11 09:01:50 EST
From:  Cuddle1955

i am the parent of a child in CA who a program that uses multisensory
approach because he is dyslexia. The district will not use them and i have
been to 2 fair hearings in this matter so at this point i want to know if
there is any place in my area that i can get some kind of free help for my
son he is 14 in the 9th grade if any one can help me please email me at
[e-mail]

SUBJECT:  Dysgraphia:What's Best?     Date:  97-05-11 23:24:16 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

      Our son has been diagnosed w/ dysgraphia. The elemantary school has an
included program. He is in fourth grade and in the special program and being
tutored in reading, speling and math  by an Orton-Gillingham trained Special
Ed teacher. The research I have found recently stated that the I.T.A. was the
best for teaching dysgraphic students to read. Would one work better than the
other?
      We provided an Alphasmart wordprocessor for him to use in school. His
teacher has not incorporated any of his subjects on this yet. Do you have
suggestions on how this can be used for spelling, writing, math etc. Are
there any model cirriculums set up for dysgraphics? When is using a
calculator for math helpful? When shouldn't it be used?
       I heard of the book "Dysgraphia, Why Johnny can't Write" which is a
parents and teachers handbook for dysgraphics. Has anyone heard of this and
should I purchase 2. One for the teacher as well?
         I was surprised that most of the information about Gysgraphia on the
Internet was generated in Scotland. I have also found a lot of sources using
ERIC on AOL. Is it true that as many as 4% have dysgraphia?
        I would like any suggestions for the resources, ciriculums, etc.which
could help my 10 year old and my 6 year old who is exihibiting the same
difficulties.Please E-Mail me at Lookouts4@AOL.
         By the way there is hope for Dysgraphics. I have it and have been
the State Recording Secretary for a large state organization for the past 2
years. I plan well ahead  and use a tape recorder for board meetings and
state conferences. I can hardly read the notes I take.

Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia:What's Best?     Date:  97-05-12 09:08:00 EST
From:  Wtree5

Can someone explain what AlphaSmart is, and how it is used for dysgraohic
kids?  I've seen several references to its usefulness, but no description of
it.  Also, what is ERIC ?  Thanks!   P.S.  to SusanS29:  I have your book on
call from our local library & looking forward to reading it and sharing it
with my son's resource room teacher.  I met with her recently, and she had
browsed  another  internet system and found some references to dysgraphia &
will be doing more dictating with my son.  I have noticed he can also dictate
the answers to his math problems with more accuracy than when he writes them,
and I wonder if this is part of dysgraphia?  He  has no trouble with all the
math concepts and processes, and can  recite or answer correctly when quizzed
orally on the math factors, but within the written problem solving, will make
"simple" computational  errors.  These errors happen much less frequently
when he looks at the problem and dictates the answers to me.... Has anyone
else noticed this with their dysgraphic children?  He is using a Franklin
Speller in the resource room, and it seems to help a lot.  She showed me a
page-long story he wrote himself, which was very well organized!  This is
great progress!!  Reading all the postings here really has helped me
understand both my son and his teachers better.
.

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia:What's Best?     Date:  97-05-12 12:52:00 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, my daughter's both use an alphasmart pro. It is a modified keyboard
that has a small display window at the top and 8 keys which allow the student
to store information as to subject or catagory. The alphasmart retains the
information  when the student types into it and then allows this information
to be transferet to a computer. It  also has addition features which allows
the information to be transfered back to the alphasmart as well as modified
key displays. It runs on batteries for about 10 hours average time and is
very sturdy. The price is arround $250 a unit. The company has been very
hepfull whenever I have needed to access them.
      My daughter's have formulated their own use of this equipment into
their school day. They found it esaier to use one key for each subject and
then devide that information later after transfering the information at home
to our computer to the microsoft works program. At that time they can alter
thier written work as needed, adding deleting, spell check, etc.
      They type all their wirtten work, notes, dittos and tests. It has been
a great help to them with the dysgraphia as well orgainization issues. They
no longer lose papers. The typing is less tiring and is more legible. The
girls also use a note taker, so any information they miss can be typed into
their notes when they get home.
     I would suggest a good typing program if a child is going to use this
technology. My girls took a self pacing typing program which I purchased from
the local community college. That costs was $50. It was an easy coarse.
     Hope this helps. If you need numbers to contact the aphasmart Pro
company please email me and I will give those numbers to you. My girls
keyboards were provided by the school. Barb.




SUBJECT:  dysgraphia   Date:  97-05-12 13:05:56 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello again thought I would add a web page to brose through:    ldonline.org
     Lood for Richard Wandermen's article there. He has dysgraphia and I
found it the best explanation of how dysgrpahia impacts on a childs ability
to write. It was on the main screen last week , but if it is gone from there
look in the indpeth area,  then click on technology and his article is
located there. Barb

SUBJECT:  AlphaSmart    Date:  97-05-12 21:32:15 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

AlphaSmart is a word processor which weight only a few pounds and has a
carrying case and can be carried to and from school easily. It has 8
different files. My son is 10 and has Dysgraphia and we are encouraging him
to learn how to keyboard. When he comes home we can read his assigned
spelling words. This can also be used for homework assignments and
communication between the special Ed teacher and the parent. It can be
connected to a computer by cables then downloaded into a word processing
program. Then the spelling and grammer can be corrected.
     If you have ever tried to read the list of words written by a dysgraphic
student you will appreciate the need to learn to use the keyboard. Our son
would not only misspell words but we could not determine what letter he was
trying to write. Is it an "a" or a "u" or an "o"?
       There are few computers available in each classroom. If our son was
going to learn keyboarding we felt we had to provide the equipment so we
bought the Alphasmart for about $250.  Buying a computer for the classroom
would not help our son. I'm sure we are entitled to have the school provide
one however we could not wait that long.
        Information on alphasmart can be found on the Internet using Yahoo
and keying in "Alphasmart."

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia:What's Best?    Date:  97-05-16 18:05:30 EST
From:  Tslc8

There is a lot of great information here...It would help a lot if people
would write the ages of their children or students...its hard to know which
articles are appropriate...My daughter is 11 and going into 7th grade.Any
info. on equipment for her would be helpful..she is not able to keyboard
well, either..Thanks.

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia:What's Best?    Date:  97-05-17 18:15:16 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

My son is 10 and in the 4th grade. he does not type well and he doesn't like
to type. However he must learn therefore we have given him an Alphasmart
wordprocessor to take to school and back. We hope that by using it  in school
will help him learn keyboarding. If we wait for the special Ed IEP to
incorporate a keyboarding class evry day the school year will be over.
      The classification process takes for ever then it takes almost as long
to put all the modifications in place. WE ads parent must be pro-active take
the upper hand. If you can buy an alphasmart for your child and insist she
use it in school. It costs $250.
     If your child is classified and has Dyslexia/Dysgraphia this should be
the must have piece of equipment.

SUBJECT:  Inclusion?Here to stay or...   Date:  97-05-17 18:39:04 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

Recently the Commissioner of Ed. in New York visited my son's Elementary
School. He was taking a hard look at our Model Included Program. If the
powers that be decide Inclusion has not worked, will that effect our children
who's cirriculum has been modified? Will there still be Special Education
teachers to teach him to read and give him his test orally?
Is the Included program being dismantled?
 I would welcome any coments on this.
     I have learned that as many as 4% of all students have some form of
Dyslexia/ Dysgraphia. The students with this disability usually have very
high IQs. They are  Knowledgable, and Articulate. Can we afford to let this
large a population get lost in the educational system?
    I am writing the NY Commissioner of Ed. about this very concern. What is
happening in your area? Please E-Mail me at:[e-mail]

SUBJECT:
Re:Dysgraphia:What's Best?    Date:  97-05-19 07:40:37 EST
From:  Ratatat

<
My son is 10 and in the 4th grade. he does not type well and he doesn't like
to type. >

Even if all your chld does is hunt and peck it should be allowed.  Improved
keyboarding (what we used to call typing) comes with practice.  Remember too,
that those hands are still small.  Keyboards are designed for adult hands,
and sometimes until chldren's hands are physically larger, keyboarding is
difficult.

My daughter's keyboarding has improved a lot this year during 8th grade.
Some of it is the practice aspect, some if the size aspect.  Also, she now
communicates with a number of friends online through email, which is a huge
incentive to type correctly.  I used the Parental Controls through my master
AOL account and set her up so that she could be online with screen names *I*
specified.

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia:What's Best?    Date:  97-05-19 07:44:49 EST
From:  Ratatat

<The classification process takes for ever then it takes almost as long to
put all the modifications in place. >

From the time that a written request is received to evaluate a child a
"clock" starts to tick.  The federal regulations say that the evaluation must
be done in a reasonable amount of time.  Rulings, letters fo finding and case
law has defined this as usually being no more than 45 days.  Once the
evaluations are complete, and the child study team has determined
eligibility, then the IEP meeting must take place in 7 school days.  Once the
IEP is designed at the meeting, it is supposed to take effect immediately.
If a school says they have a backlog or are understaffed and cannot complete
evaluations for children referred for them in a reasonable amount of time,
then they are obligated to contact out for those services in order to meet
the requirements of "reasonable time" under IDEA.

Additionally, all children found eligible for services under IDEA, must have
a valid IEP in place by the first day of school.

SUBJECT:  Literature Night at
School   Date:  97-05-25 13:44:09 EST
From:  GlynFP1

It's time to brag about my son.  Some of you may have been following his
"case" online for a while. He was just diagnosed with  LD in written
language.  He hates to write.  He has a hard time putting his thoughts on
paper.

Over Spring break, I suggested he try to write something.  He got excited
about a topic and set about writing.  He flat out wrote about 1 1/2 pages (in
rather large printing), and I put it on the word processor for him.  He then
added more by keyboarding.  Later, he dictated while I typed.  Then he went
through and edited it a bit.  Finished product was about 4 pages printed out
(in a larger font size than normal!).

The teacher was thrilled.  His gifted teacher loved it.  AND he was chosen as
one of 19 kids in the whole school to read his story at our school's first
annual Literature Night.  He was so excited he  could hardly tell me about
this honor.  He said that when the teacher told him, he was thinking "ME??
I'm  being chosen for my writing?  There must be a mistake!"

There are many lessons to be learned from this experience. 1) Dysgraphic kids
have alot to say and we have to be creative in trying to find the best way
for them to express themselves. 2)There are openminded teachers out there who
understand this.  3)  There are wonderful educators out there who understand
also that a child's self-esteem is SO important when they have LD.  My son's
teachers realized how this Literature Night experience would help my son see
that he CAN do it, maybe a little differently than non-LD kids, and that he
will have alot of help in the coming years.

If you could have just seen him in his blazer and loafers, standing in front
of the microphone reading about an imaginary country.  After the
presentation, total strangers came up to him and congratulated him and asked
him how he had come up with all of those ideas.  The principal told him he
was especially proud of him.  Other teachers complimented him.  What a great
night for a third grade boy!  And I bet he'll remember it for a long time.  I
know his parents will!

EGF

SUBJECT:  Congrats: I knew you could!   Date:  97-05-25 21:18:21 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

Congratulations Glyn,
       I know how important those successes are. My son luckily has had a few
at very critical times. When he was in the 3rd Gr. and about to start
remedial reading in a resource room I bribed him  to at least try out for his
school's Odyssey Team. He made the team and was the only 3rd grader all the
others were in the 5th. I have since referred to that success when he doubts
himself and struggles in school. I remind him that only the brightest, most
articulate and most knowledable students were on the team. Just because you
get help in reading and spelling does not mean you are dumb.
       Children with Dysgraphia are usually very bright and gifted, they
learn differently but CAN excell in school. We don't make it easy for our son
but try to be understanding of his struggle to write and spell.
      Please keep us posted.        Lookouts4


SUBJECT:  Re:Literature Night at Schoo   Date:  97-05-26 18:49:37 EST
From:  KevisB

Congratulations on your son's success! May he have many more! Kevis

SUBJECT:
Where do we find help?   Date:  97-05-27 22:24:14 EST
From:  TChamb1008

We strongly suspect our 9 year old son has some form of dyslexia/dysgraphia.
He demonstrates many of the classic symptoms I've seen in the many postings
here. Our only question is; Where do you go for help? We have lost all faith
in the local public school system, and my wife, a 20+ year veteran K-8
teacher is considering homeschooling next year to provide one on one
instruction.

We have checked all the boxes with the LD program in the school system, they
all say the same thing..."a very bright child, but his achievment is well
below his ability..." an IEP has been developed, but it does not address the
visual perception/motor skills (writing difficulty).

We are in the South Atlanta, GA  Metro Area.....Who can help us?

please e-mail to [e-mail]

SUBJECT:  Re:Where do we find help?   Date:  97-05-28 09:36:25 EST
From:  Ratatat

<We have checked all the boxes with the LD program in the school system, they
all say the same thing..."a very bright child, but his achievment is well
below his ability..." an IEP has been developed, but it does not address the
visual perception/motor skills (writing difficulty). >

One of the requirements of the IEP is that it meet the students needs... and
be followed.  You, are parents, are equal partners in the development and
design of that INDIVIDUALIZED education plan.  If you don't agree that the
IEP is designed to meet your child's unique needs, or is not being followed
you have rights.

Contact the Protection and Advocacy Office in your state and get your state's
rules and regulations governing IEPs.

SUBJECT:  Cogat tests   Date:  97-05-29 12:20:44 EST
From:  Wtree5

Can anyone comment on the use of Cogats as criteria for admission to a gifted
program for 3rd - 6th graders?  Is this test generally considered to be a
valid measure of an individual's abilities?  If my child has been classified
with an expressive language disability, is the (unmodified) cogat test
considered to be a valid/accurate measure of his abilities?  Thanks.

SUBJECT:
portable word processors   Date:  97-06-02 20:44:29 EST
From:  JKaac

Somewhere on these message boards, someone mentioned about another portable
word processor similar to the alphasmart Pro but with more capabilities.
Priced around $800.  Can any one tell me what the product is called and give
me more info.  We're having an IEP planning meeting next week on a dysgraphic
high school student I work with and this sounds like it may be beneficial to
him.    Thanks!


SUBJECT:  Re:portable word processors   Date:  97-06-03 15:52:59 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Tandy makes one also - it's called the DreamWriter.  I found info at the
following web site: http://www.internexus.co.uk/tandy/school/page2.htm.
There is a description, features, and specifications.

SUBJECT:  Re:portable word
processors   Date:  97-06-03 18:13:57 EST
From:  Mithue

Three similiar looking and functioning portable word processors:
Laser PC5 can export and import files to MAC or IBM, has spell check, display
large and small fonts, spreadsheet, database, calculator, print directly to
printers (similiar to Dreamwriter)
Perfect Solutions
15950 Schweizer Court
W. Palm Beach FL 33414
Tel. [phone],   Fax. [phone]

Dreamwriter: Transfers files to Mac or Windows PCs
NTS computer systems LTD.
phone: [phone]   Fax: [phone]
E-Mail: [e-mail]
www http://nts.dreamwriter.com

AlphaSmart,Pro       (Mac/Apple II GS or PC) no spell check
http://www.alphasmart.com

SUBJECT:  Re:portable word processors   Date:  97-06-04 20:05:19 EST
From:  Peggy 620

Apple computers just came out with a new machine - the emate which costs
about $800 direct from Apple.  It does word processing, Internet access, runs
other Newton software, and is compatible with both Mac and PC computers and
printers.  You can start a report on your home PC, transfer the info to the
emate to use at school, then edit on the school Mac and print at school.
Call Apple for further info.

SUBJECT:  Re:portable word processors   Date:  97-06-05 21:35:35 EST
From:  JKaac

Thank you all.  You are a wealth of information!   What have you found to be
the most beneficial from personal experience?

SUBJECT:  Re:Hello   Date:  97-06-06 11:34:24 EST
From:  Pink1976

Just saying HI to everyone. I have been off line for over two weeks due to
computer viurs. Have missed reading all the great messages here. Will be back
maybe next week, if computer gets fixed by then. Hope the end of the school
year was great for all. Barb/ Mars000210

SUBJECT:  Re:Hello   Date:  97-06-06 14:24:17 EST
From:  Ratatat

Glad to have you back on line Barb.  I wondered where you went!

SUBJECT:
Re:Hello   Date:  97-06-16 13:26:43 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello all, am back on line. AT LAST! As I have been reading the posts for
this year I think computers are the greatest thing going. Parents and
educators have helped so many with thier great suggestions on line. Now that
summer is here and we have more time to devote to chatting ( instead of
homework) at the end of the day how about an online chat that is convient to
as many as possible (even a day time chat and/or night chat). Drop a message
here for day and time that you think would be good for all and lets get
prepared for next year. Hope to here from you all soon. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:writing
difficulties   Date:  97-06-17 18:15:22 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Read  Dr. Mel Levines Educational Care all your thoughts will be
validated...

SUBJECT:  Re:Type Software   Date:  97-06-17 18:18:18 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Mario didn't make it in our house.....  I have often wondered about covering
over the keys or taking the letters off and having him practice for a set
time with correct hand position (or close)  this way he would only be looking
at the screen ..so his hands will learn where the letters are...wish me
luck

SUBJECT:  Re:not always being the bad gu   Date:  97-06-17 18:26:58 EST
From:  LMCGZ

oh Robin...been there done that...I don't know if I am right or wrong but a
long time ago I decided content matters over looks (it still scares me to
death to watch my son write..hes in 7th grade)  I figure ..as long as he
keeps plugging along and giving content he will be ok....
..on the up side (?) I have been fighting his school to provide him with
computer access..one day when he heard me on the phone with an advocate
explaining the new Knots we were running into he said.."well maybe I'll do my
homework with a dull pencil for awhile"  We laughed outloud.  ...so maybe  if
you allow your son to do ok visually presentable work he will get the
technology sooner than my son is....
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Beware the bottle neck   Date:  97-06-17 18:34:30 EST
From:  LMCGZ

my son has always had a greatdeal of difficulty with written work ...all
along the way teachers have said it will be alright..but meanwhile note
taking was in his future...and no modifications where made or compensations
taught for his handwriting....what a nightmare.. I didnt listen to my gut and
scream for the help he needed..no Im yelling.. but I wish I had put on more
pressure earlier
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:Beware the bottle neck   Date:  97-06-18 08:38:17 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, I found in my school district that to get either a lap top or a
wordprocesser for my children to use in school I had to request in writing
for an evaluation for assistive technology. Up until I requested that they be
evealuated for assistive technology the school only put in thier IEP/504 that
they should have access to a computer. Maybe that is how your school district
handles wheather or not your child will get to use a computer durring the
full school day. I have found putting all requests in writing is the way to
go. The school never told me that to get assistive technology that additional
testing was required by our school system. I, like you, thought that since
our evaluations stated that thier written work should be done on a computer
that would be enough, it was not. Good Luck Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Type Software   Date:  97-06-18 10:19:52 EST
From:  KevisB

Try the Herzog typing instruction. It is much better than any of the computer
programs. It uses "hub keys" D and K instead of the home row, and teaches
students specific motions to use to find letters.

SUBJECT:  Re:Type Software   Date:  97-06-18 13:15:04 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Kevis - I've seen you suggest the Herzog method before.  Where do you find
it?

SUBJECT:  Re:Barb-Beware the bottle   Date:  97-06-18 14:04:31 EST
From:  Lmazzola

Barb:

Raelly good advice. My daughter's IEP states the same..."have access to a
word processor", but there are none in the classrooms and they only use the
computer labs once a week (if that). I never knew that a separate evaluation
needed to be done for Assistive Technology.

I feel like we're in the CIA and every LITTLE bit of information is on a
"Need to know" basis (of course the determination of what inormation we
receive is made by the powers that be!)

Lisa

SUBJECT:  Re:Beware the bottle neck   Date:  97-06-18 16:34:33 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Hi Barb..they have have even pur chased a word processor for him....they
believe he needs it...  they just can't figure out who should be in charge of
it...  they also forgot to buy it a protective case...   so I went out bought
the same WP and then they didn't have a plan for introducing inot his day...
He has also not recieved services this year..I have been denied a due process
hearing....  and the story goes on and on...
I agree about putting things in writing..I just wish the law mattered here.
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:Barb-Beware the bottle   Date:  97-06-18 16:35:46 EST
From:  LMCGZ

LISA !  LOL  that was great...the CIA..it does feel like that

SUBJECT:  Re:Beware
the bottle neck   Date:  97-06-18 16:59:26 EST
From:  Mars000210

Lorraine/ think is really a new area for most schools. The school gave one to
each of my daughters/ no keyboading first / no game plan/ Lucky for me I
prepared ahead/ had the girls take a typing coarse last summer I bought at
the local community college ( it was great for them), then when school gave
them the word processors, they knew how to type, I then just brainstored how
they should use durring the school day. The girls are in charge of thier
processors themselves, they bring them home and download all of thier class
work and tests at home. The alphasmart Pro we use allows them to assign a
section of the processor for each class/ I just told them to type everything
into it. No handwriting at all. We backed up any work they missed with a note
taker. It didn't take long for them to develope stratagies on how to use the
processor that worked for them. My girls love it. Just try and figure out
ways the technology works for your child / depending on what grade he/she is
in. Think about how the school  work is presented: and example would be if
it's ditto's then type answers only and attached downloaded copy to ditto
sheet. Make the technology work for your child. That's what it's there for.
Barb

SUBJECT:  Help getting Organized   Date:  97-06-18 21:08:03 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

       Recently I learned about the Landmark School in Prides Crossing MA.
This School specializes in Language Based Disbilities. My son has Dysgraphia
and can't remember to remember anything. His shoes are always untied. He
would leave his coat and Lunch box at school, etc. He is going into the 5th
grade and has improved. He has an IEP  but as I have learned, most students
with LDs are also disorganized so we plan to attend a seminar at Landmark in
the hopes to learn how we can help him get organized.
        The Landmark School offers summer seminars for teachers and parents.
This July I will attend a 2 day course called "Study Skills Seminar which
includes Organizating Strategies for materials, study space, homework, and
long term assignments as well as developing a system-wide study skills
program.
        As parents we must take the upper hand and do this for our children.
I don't think the SPED teachers are equiped to help them and I am beginning
to wonder if they even know how best to address specific learning
disibilities. I suspect most classified students are getting a lot of
remediation and little if any help in overcoming their disabilities. Perhaps
this is not the intent of the school system.
       If any Sp Ed teachers read this message I wish they would enlightening
me how they do address specific learning Disibilities such as Dysgraphia. I
believe my son is also slightly Dyslexic. He has difficult spelling too.
      The Landmark School is one of the few schools I've heard of that is
addressing specific Learning Disibilities. they also offer seminars in How to
Teaching Writing, Basic Math, and Expressive Language and Instructional
Practicum.
      They have a WEB site www.landmark.com.

Forever learning more,
                                                                       Libby



SUBJECT:  Re:Type Software   Date:  97-06-19 13:53:24 EST
From:  KevisB

The address for Herzog is Herzog Research, 1433 E. Broadway, Tucson, Arizona
85719. Telephone [phone]. The manual and Hub Key sensors are very
inexpensive, less than any software program. Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:Beware the bottle
neck   Date:  97-06-19 18:44:12 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Barb..thank you again....   How big are your girls classes?..what grades are
they in?  ..what did they think about using it at first?  My son is 13. The
age of being the same.  He thought it was cool when we bought it and now...
ummmm.....  he is sitting to long by the pool if you know what I mean.. :-)
School is over.....but I hope to have things set up before fall.  I am
considering sending him to private school.  Big decision.
..thanks again...
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:Help getting Organized   Date:  97-06-19 18:48:03 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Libby ..I couldn't agree with you more.  I came to a decision this year that
special education is not about  helping the student its about helping the
schol move the student through.  Its harsh..but its ben a harsh year...and I
work for the system my son attends in.
thanks for info on landmark..I was lookinf for something for this summer...
I'll check it out...
Loarrine

SUBJECT:  Re:Beware the bottle neck   Date:  97-06-20 08:49:02 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hi, My girls attend just the reqular classes ( about 25). The classes are the
same size as the average for our area. They are fully included except as I
said for the resource class that was started last year ( it had about 10
kids). I didn't tell my girls this was resourse we called it study hall (
thats how they used it too). My girls are now 14/13. Each had a different
view on taking the wordprocessor to school with them. My youngest has always
been the one who shakes off feelings of being different (she couldn't wait to
pull it out). The oldest is more cautious. She had the most difficulty in
pulling it out and just starting to use it durring the school day. I did what
I thought best and just tried a loose bit of pschy on her. I explained that
you only get made fun of by others if they know you feel different. I told
her pull it out of her backpack like she does her books ( like it was just
another book)  and to just act like this was the greatest thing going and if
and when the kids ask about it just say hey I just can't write fast so I get
to use this to pick up my speed. Worked for us. After a week she came home
and said all the kids said they wished they had one it was soo Kool. The
hardest thing for my girls to understand was that the teachers didn't say how
to use it durring the class day or when to use it. I told them it was just
new thing for the teachers, that no other kids had it yet at school  and that
this was their job to figure out what would work or not.This was a new
concept for the girls that they got to chose how it was to be used not some
adult saying do this my way. Gave them a feeling of power. I made sure that
the girls knew before hand that this was to be used the way they felt best
not anyone else and if they felt that they wanted to use this a certain way
and someone disagreed with how they were using it that they should go to a
phone and call me immediatley ( even if it was in the middle of class).
   Tell your son it looks like a small lap top and that's how the kids at
school viewed it. We didn't have one child make fun of the girls. Also tell
him it made school so much easier in many ways.
   The downside the poor processor got used like a book. Thrown here and
there.Good thing is that it took a beating and kept on working My oldes is
starting High School her biggest worry now is someone will steal it. Always
something to think about isn't it. Barb.

SUBJECT:  Re:Beware the bottle neck   Date:  97-06-21 07:30:44 EST
From:  LMCGZ

We have the brother power note.  When he showed it to his friends they really
liked it....but when it came to school..the brakes went on like crazy..  he
gets picked on a fair amount by bullies.  I think thats part of the reason
the school didn't want him carying it around..Im thinking smaller school next
year..but Im not sure.  so many decisions.  In my sons schol they are not
allowed to have backpacks..so the WP would really stand out....  I would like
to spend a year in shang ra la....  ok..maybe two... :-)
Lorraine
oh and barb..thank you so much for writing.I'll share it with my son

SUBJECT:
Re:Beware the bottle neck   Date:  97-06-21 08:21:39 EST
From:  Mars000210

Lorraine, isn't it a shame when kids pick on anyone. We had some issues like
that at different times. My children are lucky in many ways in that I have
three kids, each one year older then the other 15/14/13, . So they go to bat
for each other. Maybe some parents on line here could give some advice on how
to help your son deal with those children who bully him. I have always
thought that the schools need a program that teaches greater understanding
between peers. They do it in private bussiness for adults. It wouldn't stop
some kids but I bet a lot of the kids would become more understanding of each
other.
     Tell him from me and my kids. Everyone gets made fun of at some time in
thier lives. Some times the only thing to do is ignore them and not take to
heart hurtfull things they say. I've have always told my children pick
firends who say kind things to you, they will be friends for life. Take Care
Barb

SUBJECT:  bullies    Date:  97-06-21 20:17:16 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Barb,,,if were just words ...not that they arent bad enough..but its the
physical threats and bruises that concern me.  My son is an outgoing fun
loving kind of guy arund the house. Hes a big boy with a size 13 foot...but
at school you would think he was 2 ft tall and super shy.  I think hes
compensating really hard at school and it wears him down.  Hes vulnerable and
a bully can smell that...also the teachers bully sometimes...  His
handwriting and spelling are  constant invitations for garbage talk.   Im a
prevention specialist I work all the time on these issues with kids..but you
can't do this work from far away. Needless to say its frustrating.  I know
its important as a boy to be able to deal with these guys on his own..and
then I also know the trouble the boys who are bothering him have gotten into
before... (they are seriously troubled  young men)  I am glad the school year
is over.  another one down.

SUBJECT:  Re:bullies    Date:  97-06-22 05:12:23 EST
From:  Mars000210

Lorraine, what is the school doing to stop these bullies? At 13 he is too
young to handle physical abuse. Your right he probobly is exhausted with just
coping with the demands at school. You mentioned that teachers are guilty
also. I had a few teachers who did this to my girls also. Have you tried
enlisting the principle help in stopping thier behaviors. I found that when I
had in my girls IEP/504, specific interventions wrtitten that addressed that
issue it helped stop those teachers who thought it was fun to have the class
laugh at the girls. Why not a conference with the offending teacher and
principle. Maybe the principle could think up some stratagies to prevent
those children from bothering your son. If they pick on him in the hall way
between classes could your son be allowed to leave class a little earlier so
he avoids those children/ even with a friend, so he doesn't have to walk
alone. The school should also be able to allow your son to carry a bookbag to
classes. That exception is made all the time. There must be ways for the
school day to be made less stressfull for your son. He shouldn't have to cope
with these issues. I wish I could help you more. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:bullies    Date:  97-06-22 06:49:40 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Barb,,,if were just words ...not that they arent bad enough..but its the
physical threats and bruises that concern me.  M>

After a couple of kids picked on and teased my son from about forth grade
through eighth grade, one of the kids taunts changed to threats of physical
violence.  Up till then my son literally walked away and/or ignored these two
boys.  My son was not their only victim either.

When the teased became threatening this is what I did.

I called the mothers of these boys and told them what was going on, then
informed them (no discussion) that from this point forward I would be keeping
a daily journal of each incidence of contact or communication between our two
children.  I explained that I was doing this so that I would have
documentation should I need it for any reason.  I then told them that it
would probably be a good idea for them to tell their child not to even speak
to my kid again - ever.

I then had a conference with the middle school principal and the dean for the
grade and told them what I'd done, and told them that I expected their
intervention on this at school whenever they witnessed an incident.  I wanted
it stopped.

Well, I think the call to the mothers worked.  The two boys literally never
spoke to my son another time after that!

Had they continued, I would have filed a report with the police and used my
documentation as evidence of the pattern of harassment and abuse.

SUBJECT:
Re:bullies    Date:  97-06-22 11:22:03 EST
From:  LMCGZ

That was very sweet of you Barb...  theres nothing like another parent to
help is there? It was refreshing to hear that there are schools where you
have a meeting write a plan and people respond. That hasn't been my
experience here. Its been horrible. I work in multiple school districts in
our area and I have to say ours is the worst. Its big and people are a umm..I
don't know tired? must be something in the water.   I hate the cost idea of
private school but Im considering going for it. The district has failed to
generate an appropriate IEP, implement the one they did put together, give me
due process or an outside evaluation ...and my office is across the hall from
the special ed office. I magine what others arent getting...very frustrating.
You are right about the physical and verbal abuse being to much.  I marvel at
my son every day. He has managed to seperate out the two worlds..but he
shouldnt have to endure school.  He deserves better. All kids do.

SUBJECT:
Re:bullies    Date:  97-06-22 11:26:03 EST
From:  LMCGZ

very cool.
Did your son worry that it would get worse after you got involved?  That
happened once. Not good. Staff was never there to help. I changed his school.
BUt hes just vunerable in the school environment. He is also at the age where
he is humilated that mom has to help with this.  Anybody out there come up
with a way to balance that developing male ego and protection?

SUBJECT:
Re:bullies    Date:  97-06-22 13:55:44 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

I have a few thought about the two things ya'll are expressing concerns
about:
1. How to handle the mean kids who pick on our kids
2. Enroll them in a private school where they will not be teased any longer.
      When we felt our son was not be in the best environment in Public
School we considered a very good private school about an hours drive from
here. We felt our son would get a better education and the other students
would be from the better families who would be more concerned about how their
children treated other students.
        WRONG. We received some very good advice which helped us decide not
to enroll our son in this school. In the elite and private schools there is
another pecking order to deal with. The spoiled brats whose parents are very
affluent may get little or no guidance on how to be considerate of others. If
your children are not used to competing with the viy leagues they can be
kicked around for more than one reason than their learning disabilities.

      In public school there is the riff raft that memic their parent's lack
of manners and/or those who think they are above the school rules becuse they
are so bright and do so well and are the darlings of the teachers. One boy
really surprised me because his family is religious and I know his mother
would not approve of his behavior towards my son. However he really
humiliated my son last Friday and this is what I plan to do:
        School is about to end, there are only 2 half days left but I don't
think this should be left as it is. I plan to call his mother and tell her
what her son did to my son. I don't want to threaten to do anything about it
but intend to play on her sympathy and help her understand how hurt my son
was. Especially since until Friday the boys were friends. I'm sure some of
what went on was crowd psychology. And I will speak to the teacher and find
out if he knew of what happened.
       I have found that the patient but  tenacious approach has worked well.
Things don't get done quite as quickly as I preferred but I have gotten
results and I am on good terms with all concerned.
Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:bullies    Date:  97-06-22 16:57:03 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hmm. lots of points of view here. At least you have some ideas to bounce
arround. Just for the money I would do what Ratatat said if it was my kid
getting the abuse and there was no way else to stop it. I wouldn't hesitiate
to file a police report either.
     There are horror stories everywhere that doesn't mean changing him to
another school isn't a viable solution. I know lots of kids that go to some
very posh private schools and those kids are very nice. No school private or
public has a cornner on the market for good/bad behavior. It can be hit or
miss.
     My last point is that your son may get embarassed when you intervene,
but deep down son or daughter kids are always glad thier parents care that
much, and if your intervention pays off, so much the better. I asked my 15
year old son to make sure and he agreed. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:bullies    Date:  97-06-22 19:17:34 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Did your son worry that it would get worse after you got involved? >

No, I think he was releaved.

Also, we'd practice some good comebacks to use before this, so he felt
slightly impowered.

I think that because I told the principal about my converation with the
parents after it was done, and because they didn't want to have the boys have
a complaint filed against them, or an ensuing publicity, they really kept an
eye out for things.

Now, my son, who is now 17, is very capable of taking care of himself in most
situations.  He tells me it's because he had a good role model!  His mom.
And, to this day, he can stand up to all sorts of unfairness, etc. because he
knows, ultimately, I'll back him if he needs it (when he's in the
right).

SUBJECT:  Re:bullies    Date:  97-06-22 19:20:26 EST
From:  Ratatat

< No school private or public has a cornner on the market for good/bad
behavior. It can be hit or miss. >

So, true.  My son was attending a small, "desirable," private school the
whole time these kids were after him.  No adult in the school intervened on
his behalf, or tried to teach any lessons about being a good citizen.  At
least, not until I laid down my ultimatum.

SUBJECT:  bullies   Date:  97-06-22 21:15:48 EST
From:  Caitlin35

Some parents of kids who have been or are at risk for major bullying have
worked it so there is a classroom open for Lunch Club where there is a
teacher's aide there just to be there, and the kids have a radio and
newspapers to look at as well as some board games they bring in. The "club"
is open to kids referred by teachers or parents and the kids' friends. Keeps
the problems down at lunch,anyway...also, you can have kids excused five
minutes early sometimes so you can pick them up before the other kids get
out. --Kathy

SUBJECT:  bullies and thugs   Date:  97-06-23 20:28:40 EST
From:  LMCGZ

the major differance between a private school and a public school bully  is
the chance that they are carrying a weapon.   I have a hard time giving my
son advice on this because I know there is so little protection to back him
up at school.  I see the kids get kicked out of school ...get no help... and
turn around and come back in further behind thier class..  and in search of
the next victim to gain power over.  Its hard seeing it all from so many
different angles.
Private school is not the perfect answer...but my son needs to be able to
concentrate on school in school.  He needs to be able to bring his word
processor to school and have support and not have to worry every minute
abbout someone taking it.   I feel like at thirteen I have a time limited
window of opportunity for him to get the compensation skills he needs.   I am
also feeling guilty about time lost.  For those of you who have tried private
school any does and donts for  a kid who is dysgraphic?   What would you
consider normal school anxiety and what would you think is over the top for
our kids?   All input is always welcome...  Its wonderful to think outloud
like this...

SUBJECT:  Re:bullies and thugs   Date:  97-07-01 06:03:12 EST
From:  Mars000210

:Hello, over the top signs that children are overly stressed from my
perspective is when my children behavior changes. Each of my kids is
different. I always look for those little signs that something has happened,
that they have had a bad day. Are they too quiet/ too talkative/ bulk at
doing homework/ not hungry/ too hungry. Kids don't always say their stressed
they usually show thier stress in some type of behavior. Solutions are
important, but I've found that talking even if I'm the only one doing it
helps more then anything else to relieve a lot of stress.
      Some stress from school is inherent with anyone who has LD's. It is
hard enough to understand how the LD impacts oneself, and anyone who doesn't
have an LD just can't feel what that is like to ajust yourself to each and
everday situation. Our families solution is to realize that school is a place
to learn, but not at others pace. Dysgraphia is different for each
individual. Keep a sence of humor and help your child to develope this skill.
Learning should be fun and interresting not a constant test of who keeps up
with who. This is an attitude that will sustain a child when they hit the
work world.
    Don't feel quilty. Just be glad you know now. I didn't know I was
dysgraphic until my oldest child was diagnosed, way back when, in 11 the
grade. Time is not lost. Learning is an ongoing process. My oldest just
completed her fist year after going back to school at 27. She marvels at how
much more she enjoys school now. We could have felt quilty about not knowing
instead we chose to put it in perspective. The only time you should feel
quilt is when you know and do nothing. Barb

SUBJECT:  perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-02 20:29:48 EST
From:  LMCGZ

well put words Barb.....  I am knee deep in preparing for a due process
hearing...  I do feel better doing something...  but at times its sooo
overwhelming..  I have my own learning disability and I think sometimes I get
scared that he has to depend on me to figure this thing out..     you are
right about prespective..we've gotten this far...  he couldn't read when all
of this first started...  he reads now for pleasure..never thought I would
see the day..  perspective.  Ok bardb..Im on it.

 has anyone out there tried Orton Gilingham? (or something like that?)

SUBJECT:
Re:perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-03 07:28:53 EST
From:  Mars000210

Another thought while your going through the team meeting thing. Remember
even if you don't get  what you think and know your child needs that doesn't
mean he won't be sucessfull. Try not looking at the team meeting as an win or
lose type system, but rather as a court room. How many trials does the
average person get to prove themselves innocent, the appeals can go on
forever. Teams are like that. You can always go back again and again to
present new stratagies. I know many won't agree with me, but for me it works.
I find that there is less stress when I think this didn't turn out what can I
do now, rather then I lost we are doomed. I also keep in mind that teachers
and administrators are busy and overwhelmed. I don't waste thier time. If I
am not sure on how to processed I ask everyone and thier brother what they
think ( there are lots of knowlegable people who do know). Then give my best
argument. Last I have met many people over the years who found out they had
LD's/ ADD etc.Thier happiness was not related to how  well they did in school
but on how well they learned to cope with difficulties life handed them. Good
Luck at your meeting.Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-18 07:43:23 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, how about some input when the interventions are working for the
dysgaphic child. How do you improve the content. It is an issue that needs
addressing when the child is being sucessfull in getting his ideas on paper (
at last), but you want the content to reflect more of what the child wants to
say, but has never had the oportunity to express easily before. I have
noticed that the teachers use other students to go over each others papers
and offer suggestions to improve the story, is that the most effective way to
accomplish this for our children. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-18 08:09:31 EST
From:  Lmazzola

Barb:

That's a very good question. This "peer conferencing" is used a lot here in
our school. I have felt that it is NOT the best method. First of all because
kids can be very cruel and second, it further stigmatizes the child who is
lagging behind the others.

Lisa

SUBJECT:  Re:peer conferencing   Date:  97-07-18 09:44:14 EST
From:  PBTanguay

We've been in situations where this was done well, and where it was done
poorly.  When done properly, I think the kids benefit a lot.

This past year our daughter's teacher (sixth grade) used peer conferencing,
but she started the process at the outline phase, and carried it through each
draft, and to the final.  The feedback was always constructive and
appropriate, but the teacher provided checklists for the kids to follow.
They also had to make specific suggestions for improvement, not just
criticize, and had to initial their comments.  Also, the kids worked in small
groups of four, and each of the four had to read and review each other's
work.  These kids worked in their groups over several months, so really got
to know each other well, and had excellent guidence from the teacher.  Our
system has moved to a cooperative education model, so this is just one
example.  Also, this particular teacher received an award at the White House
last year for accomplishments in teaching language arts - she's a brilliant,
dedicated, and creative teacher.

When done poorly, without appropriate guidance or involvement from the
teacher it is an utter disaster.  Kids can be extremely cruel, and who
benefits simply from criticism?  Certainly not an LD child, who most likely
already has self-esteem issues.

IMHO (as a parent) it comes down to three things:  the teacher, the teacher,
and the teacher.  Peer conferencing can be an extremely powerful learning
method, or an utter disaster - I don't know that there's any middle ground.


SUBJECT:  Re:perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-18 09:58:08 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Barb - have your kids been taught any structured methods for writing?
Although our school uses several, our daughter has really latched onto what
they refer to as the "9 block" approach.  I have no clue why it's called 9
blocks, since I only count 8, but here's a layman's explanation.  It is kind
of an outline format - the top block runs from left margin to right margin,
and is for the Introduction and represents a paragraph.  The children have
been taught what is included in the intro. and jot down their thoughts in the
appropriate block.  The next section is three blocks down the left margin,
each marked Fact or Reason - #1, #2, and #3, and each also represents a
paragraph. To the right of each of these blocks are three additional blocks,
one for each Fact or Reason and are marked Details or examples.  The kids
have to give THREE supporting statements/sentences for each Fact or Reason
they have identified.  The last block also runs from left margin to right,
and is for the Conclusion.  They have also been taught what goes into the
Conclusion.  Once they have filled in their outline, the writing seems to
come more easily for them.  I know that there are many different methods, but
this one really seems to work for our NLD daughter.  Now, when she is given a
writing assignment, she immediately draws her blocks before she starts the
assignment.  If you followed the count, there are only 8 blocks!  In any
event, this particular method has helped our daughter tremendously.  No more
blank piece of paper - at the very least she has the outline of her blocks.
It helps her organize her thoughts, and work on "flow" issues, as well as
insure there is some substance to her written work.  Hope this makes
sense!

SUBJECT:  voice activated program   Date:  97-07-18 15:32:50 EST
From:  DO2845

It's been suggested that my son use  a voice activated program  with a lap
top.I'd like to know if anyone has experience with using this type of program
on a HS level and the efficiency of the program.
Any information on type of computer, name of program and costs would really
be helpful.

DO

SUBJECT:  Re:voice activated program   Date:  97-07-18 19:06:21 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, there is a web site that has an area that deals with evaluation of
assistive technology devices. It was located at ldonline.org/. I read up on
the voice activated programs for writing. I think they can be usefull, but
require a lot of in put to make the program work well. So a high school
student may have more patience with using that type of program. I have not
had any personel experience with those programs. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:perspective
and methods   Date:  97-07-18 19:15:14 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hi, hmm our school uses the whole language approach to written work. My
daughters use a similar approach to getting the central idea going. I am more
concerned with improving the flow and style of the piece. Many times when I
read thier work that is produced in school it reads like a police report,
everything there in the right spot but lacks their creativity. The other
children have never been cruel and have some great comments. How do you
inspire more creativity in the writing style? Can that be done, or will that
come along as they read more and see how others write? Barb

SUBJECT:
Re:perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-19 07:58:04 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Barb - how old are your daughters - what grade are they in?

SUBJECT:
Re:perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-20 06:20:42 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, My two daughters are 14 and 13 years of age. They will be in 9th and
8th grades this year. So we will be dealing with a new set of teachers and
school phylosophy this year in the high school. I have always wanted to look
at issues as I see them comming up in the future, thus my request for
interventions to improve their writing styles. I just feel that in college
and in future work there will be a need for them to be able to write more
interrestingly then they do at this time. Just a note my oldest daughter
writes very well, she is an advid reader. So I have always thought that was
an important avenue to help with being creative when producing written work,
but I am not sure if that is the central reason or is it more that some
children just instictively write better then others. Just as some children
can draw great art and other's cannot. I want at least one of my dysgraphic
kids to write a book one day. Wouldn't that be nice tribute to special
education that a child who has difficulty with written expression will turn
arround and write a book some day. Barb

SUBJECT:  LINDAMOOD - BELL   Date:  97-07-24 22:48:17 EST
From:  TChamb1008

Has anyone out there ever heard of or attended any of the seminars / classes
presented by these folks??? They sound pretty good, but seem to want to talk
money alot.

I would appreciate an e-mail if anyone has any info.

Send it to:   [e-mail]

Thanks
Tim

SUBJECT:  Re:perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-25 20:42:49 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Hi Barb...
You know Im out here struggling with this stuff..but here are my thoughts on
inspiring creativity.....
1. blindfold expression....  a good taste... a smell.. that you would present
to the blindfolded child and then remove blindfold and they would write down
what it was like using as many words as they could think....forgetting about
correct sentences and all that stuff..
2. Timed writings....  For 5 minutes they will not stop hitting keys..if they
get stuck they just keep doing the same word...  describe the day ..the air
.. the sky... having to sit at the key board....  getting gum in your
hair...whatever wild topic will catch their attention...

I think our kids start out hating the mechanics of writing so much..and work
so hard to produce so little that they go straight to the editing phase of
writing and forget the creative side..they only want to do it once.   I think
allowing my son some writing time to be creative (mind you this is done with
incentives in our house..and even then he  looks like Im slamming his hand in
a car door) can be one possible answer to the dry technical "young" writing
he produces...but Im just guessing......... or maybe Im on a quest.. :-)
Maybe we could start a creative writing board for the kids......hmmmm
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:perspective and methods   Date:  97-07-30 13:30:41 EST
From:  EpcotGst1

Hi, nice ideas for creative writing. Thats what I'm looking for. Writing
creativily on line might work for my kids.
     This is Barb by the way am writing this from Epcot / Disney.
       Know I'm addicted when I missed reading the post  here .
      Mars00210/ Barb

SUBJECT:  New areas to explore   Date:  97-08-03 07:02:45 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, I'm back from vacation and this area needs another boot. How about
some questions to keep this message area viable? Right now my area of concern
is the creative aspect for my girls, but it would be nice to see others
concerns posted here.
      I have always wondered how the children who had remediation for
handwriting faired as they progressd through the school years. Was it of
great help?
     What do our kids think about the writing process as it affects them in
school or in thier personal lives?
      How do the secoundary vs elememtary teachers differ in thier
understanding of written expression disorders? Do they lump us all in the
same group? Should we be lumped in the same group? Are we more alike then not
alike?
      What do you think? Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:New areas to explore   Date:  97-08-03 16:07:35 EST
From:  Mithue

Hi Barb, I saw your post from Disney. cool. I have elem. teachers who by
4-5th grade, begin to complain about the simplicity of the sentences with
students with writing difficulties. I find a prevailing problem at my school
in the area of writing although it is a 'focused area'. Second grade teachers
are taught to model -model -model but then they score writing prompts on a
rubric scale of 4. If the student can imitate the model: fine. Same goes for
writing word problems in math and explaining what strategy the student used.
Nowhere do they ask 1 child to go through the complete step as a model. Each
child gets a part of a step and the class goes on. Also, oral answers are not
modeled as dictated writing responses so the students in the upper grades
have a harder time actually putting their thoughts into words. I also have a
problem with the writing prompts in the upper elem. grades. Sometimes they
are half a medium size typed page. I recommend 'think abouts' and
'include...' to be written in a vertical list as opposed to a paragraph where
the student highlights. Of course, too much gets highlighted and then it
looks like the whole paragraph again! Grammar is another issue. It's gone by
the wayside. First grade teachers expect complex sentences, but 1. not age
appropriate and 2. not taught (conjunctions!) i.e. "somebody wanted
to....but(the problem)...so he(the solution). whew. do I see red. Please
excuse my ranting. This is a subject that too many people place  in the wrong
hands for remediation.
Sue

SUBJECT:  Re:New areas to explore   Date:  97-08-05 18:52:22 EST
From:  VtTbear

I have some thoughts on some of your questions...I don't think that many
educators are aware of the differences in writing difficulties, unless or
until they come across students with these varying difficulties.  My nephew
is dysgraphic and was penalized until 4th grade for his penmanship and
reversals until he was allowed with his IEP to use a laptop; there are still
those who don't get it - even directors of special education.
Secondly I think middle and secondary teachers see more of the difference
because of the varied amount of writing that students are asked to do...not
just prompts.  Just my thoughts.

SUBJECT:  Framing your thoughts   Date:  97-08-05 22:14:22 EST
From:  Limkefam

Just wondering if anyone has any knowledge of a program called "Framing your
thoughts"?  My soon to be 6th grade daughter was introduced to this program
late in the school year and will continue with it this coming year.  I could
not find out any info on the web and hoped one of you could give me something
to go on.  It seemed to be very helpful for her.  Thanks

SUBJECT:  Re:New areas
to explore   Date:  97-08-06 09:00:06 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, I think that what you said is true. Thier are differences among
dysgraphic children. As with my children three children and myself. We all
are a little different in how we present with the dysgraphia and dysnomia
combined together.
        I found that teachers at school understand better if I hold a meeting
with all the teachers at the begining of the school year to explain how each
of my children will exhibit their LD and how it will impact on each teachers
class. This prevents misinterpertation and also gives the teachers a better
frame to judge school performance. At these meeting I always point out the
differences that my family experiences at home as a way to explain that my
child's LD  has unique differences that vary even with the same diagnosis.
This really makes a difference. Barb


SUBJECT:  Re:Prompts   Date:  97-08-06 09:08:04 EST
From:  Mars000210

Another question here. I have been reading about different schools programs
to encouage students to get there thoughts organized for a writing
assignment. Does it matter which type of prompt that is used? My duaghters
schools used a circle type format ( main thoughts in onecircle for each main
thought with supporting facts in the two connecting circles). Are some
prompt's better then others for children with problems with written
expression? Is there a better way for children who use a computer in school
to accomplish the prompt type format on a computer?
    Just a thought that I was thinking about today. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Prompts   Date:  97-08-06 09:54:55 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Barb - our school used the circle method for teaching kids to organize their
thoughts before writing, but it was ineffective with our NLD daughter.  The
circle method just seemed to reinforce her already fragmented thought
process.  She loved doing the circle, but it didn't help her move the
thoughts to paper - it didn't have the organization she needed.  Once she was
done with her circle, she was clueless as to how to go to the next step - it
became just a fun exercise.  She had MUCH better results with the "9 block"
method I described in this BB on the 18th of July.  I don't know if your
daughters have organizational or sequencing problems, but mine does.  She
didn't use the circle in conjunction with the "9 block" but I can see where
it could be very effective.  They could use the circle first to get all their
thoughts out there, then move to the "9 block" to organize and sequence the
information.  Just one parent's experience - hope it helps.

Pam

Pam

SUBJECT:  tracking problems   Date:  97-08-06 10:24:24 EST
From:  Lynnebl

I have to disagree with people who state that the optometry connection to
reading problems is overblown.  Many people who say this are unaware that
there is a reading program out there to address and that expensive therapy
from an optomotrist is unnecessary.  My child has been using the GUIDED
READING PROGRAM for almost a year now and he has progressed two grade levels
in the one year.  If anyone is interested I will find some information on how
to get in touch with the company.

SUBJECT:  we aren't alone   Date:  97-08-06 13:55:14 EST
From:  AMJ MVJ

I am new to this board . . . and delighted to find a place where my
daughter's problems seem to belong!  My daughter is 7 years old, and just
started 2nd grade--and has a very difficult time with fine motor skills in
general (tying shoes, buttons, using scissors, but especially writing!!).  I
literally cannot read her writing.  She is a bright child in many
respects--she taught herself to read by age 4, and she loves to use the
computer.  But school and homework is a humongous issue for us (amount and
difficulty), which seems insurmountable at times.  I feel pressure to do all
that is given (10-16 pages a week), but also do NOT want to  overwhelm or
frusterate my daughter.  I had a short discussion with her teacher, who felt
I might try having Kaitlin exercise her hands with a rubber ball.  I
explained that it is not a muscle problem, rather a brain problem (Infantile
Spasms/seizure disorder as a baby)--but I wonder if exercises might help.
She holds her pencil very awkwardly, and cannot accomodate suggestions to
hold it otherwise.  I asked her teacher if there was any help available for
fine motor/writing issues, as I had also asked her 1st grade teacher--was
told they didn't know of any.  She has been in speech, and gets an IEP yearly
by her speech teacher, but everytime I ask about her fine motor, I feel like
there is nothing out there to address this issue.  She gets easily
frusterated, and has been teased for her "Kindergarden scribbles"--and yet I
am reluctant to make her practice writing more, as it is so difficult for
her.  All of the children's work is posted in the classroom, and I can always
pick her out quickly from across the room, and I wonder how that makes her
feel--yet wonder if it would be more stigmatizing if her work was not posted
like the others.   I have felt pretty isolated, and started to look on the
Net.  This board makes me feel like there help and hope!!!  I knew that this
couldn't be an issue for us alone!!  Please help with suggestions about how
to get the school to assess/intervene; how to address homework issues (how
much is too much; other ways to demonstrate her competence); and how to deal
with the emotional issues that are related to all of this (both for her and
me!).  Thanks in advance for any help!   (E-mail or postings)
Amy J  ([e-mail])

SUBJECT:  Re:disgraphia   Date:  97-08-06 18:47:17 EST
From:  DIAGO2

I am soooo glad I happened upon this area.  I don't know how I missed it.  I
am a regular ed teacher in an inclusion setting.  My son just turned nine and
attends a Catholic school.  He will be in fourth grade in the fall.  The
school in well equiped and has a Resource room, etc.  Nick is very bright,
does in the 90s on his report card.  His primary teachers have been great
about his very messy style.  He writes out everything.  If his projects or
homework papers are messy I type them and he turns in both items.  The
problem is fourth grade is much more demanding and as a fifth grade teacher I
know what is ahead.  We have been working this summer to try to improve the
handwriting but to no available.

Is there special testing I can request to see if Nick suffers from this order
or if he is just a slob as my husband insists?  I know my rights in the
public school but I know I need to be very prepared if I take on his Catholic
school.  I know he is entitled to district testing.  My daughter was tested
for GT.  But I want to know what I am asking for so I can make sure the
district, the school, and I can get it for him.   HELP

SUBJECT:  Re:we aren't
alone   Date:  97-08-07 08:21:12 EST
From:  Lmazzola

<<All of the children's work is posted in the classroom, and I can always
pick her out quickly from across the room, and I wonder how that makes her
feel--yet wonder if it would be more stigmatizing if her work was not posted
like the others. >>

I've experienced the same thing with my daughter, but she is 12, going into
the 7th grade. When I requestedan Occupational Therapy (OT) evaluation, the
school denied the request. Basically saying that, if she and her teachers can
read her writing, even if it isn't as legible as it should/could be, then
there isn't a problem. Why put her through another evaluation because "I",
the parent, think her handwriting should be more legible. In my opinion, it's
just one more thing that the school is not addressing which sets her further
apart from her peers. It will be one of the issues we bring up when we get to
a hearing (hopefully, it will be rescheduled before the start of school.) -
Lisa

SUBJECT:  Re:disgraphia   Date:  97-08-07 08:24:23 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, it is nice to have this area to talk to each other. Just to let
everyone who recently posted know three of my children and I have dysgraphia
as well as a few other clinks ( dysnomia and capd).
         Dysgraphia can have many causes. It can be from disorders that cause
poor muscle tone/ or neurological dysfunction in the centers or the brain.
Different stratagies can be used to help and improve the dysgraphia. Some
will help any child with dysgraphia, others only address specific childrens
difficulty. An example would be those children who have muscle problems would
benefit with exercise to those muscle groups that controll fine muscle
control/ while for other children exercises that reinforce letter formation
will strengthen thier brains ability to reconized and write thier letters.
All children with dysgraphia need stratagies to help make the writting
process easier ( these children are at great risk to write less and less/ and
to view writing as a chore).
     The only way to discern if a child has dysgraphia is to have testing
done. The schools can do this but you must request testing in writting for
your concerns in this area before the schools will test. I found that keeping
a paper trail very helpfull that documented the difficulty my children were
having with written expression. I was then prepared and able to prove my
point that the girls did have dysgrpahia and that the testing was needed. (
just to let you know I had outside testing done to confirm that the girls had
dysgrpahia). Schools operate on facts, and to have testing done a parent must
understand that documentation is important. Accomedations are a major key to
allowing these children to enjoy and learn at school.
     There will be a chat area starting in september for dysgraphia on Aol. I
will write and let everyone know when the chat will be starting. Barb




        Testing is the only way to find out

SUBJECT:  Re:alphasmart Pro   Date:  97-08-07 08:33:15 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, while at the LD chat last night I told a parent that I would write her
with the name of the company that makes the wordprocessor that my children
use at school to compensate for thier dysgraphia. (as I copied the persons
name wrong/ my dysgraphia got in the way) I am posting the information here.
    The processor is called a Alphasmart Pro and the company can be reached
on the www.
    Intelligent Periperal Devices, Inc
    Home Page: http://www.alphasmart.com
    Phone: [phone]

   There is also a processor which is made by another company called a
co-writer. I don't have the information for that equipment, but I will try
and access a parent whose childern use it and get those numbers as well.
   To the member who was at the chat please forgive me and write me if you
would like to know how my children use this equipment in school. Barb


SUBJECT:  Testing   Date:  97-08-07 10:22:58 EST
From:  AMJ MVJ

What sort of resource (within the school system or even outside the school
system), does one use in order to have a child assessed for dysgraphia?   I
have asked the teachers about getting help for my daughter's fine motor
issues, and all I get is a blank stare.

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing   Date:  97-08-07 14:03:34 EST
From:  Mithue

Co writer is a software program for PCs I believe. It predicts words as you
write so you can scroll down a list instead of spelling and typing those
words. I've been told that an easy to use and accurate voice recognition
processing system is still not available. Those on the markets today have
tedious glitches and quirks.

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing   Date:  97-08-08 11:03:47 EST
From:  KevisB

Ask the school IN WRITING to assess your daughter for a suspected learning
disability in written expression, giving your observations of her written
work as a basis. Request an OT evaluation in the same letter. They then have
to respond and test her.
My son is also dysgraphic. In his case he had a lot of trouble with the speed
of his writing--taking three to five times as long to complete the same work
as the average student, although he is very bright. If it had been only a
case of legibility, I don't know if I would have pursued the issue. But the
speed had to be addressed, as he was getting very frustrated with school in
general because it seemed like endless work to him.

Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing   Date:  97-08-08 11:10:19 EST
From:  KevisB

The name of another competitor to the AlphaSmart Pro is the Dreamwriter at
www.dreamwriter.com. Another competitor is the Laser PC-5 which you can find
at www.perfectsolutions.com. I also saw something in the Egghead Computer
catalog which looked like a possibility for only $199.

Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing   Date:  97-08-08 19:33:58 EST
From:  JKaac

Amy,
As a school based occupational therapist, I work with several students who
present with similar issues as your daughter.  One possibility is a fine
motor planning problem (dyspraxia).  Definitely put your request for an
occupational therapy assessment in writing and expect a response.

SUBJECT:
Re:Testing   Date:  97-08-09 07:43:56 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Amy, just to let you know there are differenct reasons why children
will have a diagnosis of dysgraphia. Some children have dyspraxia others have
Gertsmann Syndrome there are others too.
    Some of these children will benefit from OT others will not. Many
accomedations will help any dysgraphic child ( such as a computer or note
takers), other interventions are more specific to help the child peticular
area of difficulty.
   Most children with dysgraphia have other problems as well, as in my family
we are dysnomic as well. Having a full assessment is important. This is the
only way to determine what your child needs are to be able to learn and
produce work in school. Barb




SUBJECT:  just a thought   Date:  97-08-15 13:32:44 EST
From:  Grace2al

We've started to h.s. this year and T.'s in 4th grade. part of his everyday
lesson is the Learn to type program( that's what they used at the school) and
also to journal. He may only do two  sentances but they are his own on
whatever he wants. It seems to be working, he is starting a story that may
take him two weeks to finish but it's his. I still take dictation and type
for him but  he needs to keep some writing skills alive. oh well, thought I'd
share. Also the circle idea didn't work with my nld. either, outline seems to
work better. we just finished personal narratives now it's off to writing
directions, I'll be back if we don't get lost. :)

SUBJECT:  Re:just a thought   Date:  97-08-15 19:07:55 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, I haven't seen a digression in the speed or legibility of hand writing
in either of my daughters since using the alphasmart in school last year.
They do very little writing now by choice, but when they do I haven't noted
any great change one way or the other.
        It's a good question will using keyboarding in place of hand writing
papers cause digression of a childs writing skills? I have been looking for
an answer. Does anyone else know? I would think it would depend on the age of
the child and how soon you stop the hand written process and rely on
keyboading skills alone.
      Since keyboarding has overcome the frustration and irksome mechanics of
writing and producing my childrens work (this is their opinion), I am not
going to worry about if they may lose some ability when producing hand
written work. They can keyboard the rest of their life, but for a young child
practicing letter formation and improving legibility should be one area that
is practiced at school, as long as the child does not feel frustrated by the
process. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-08-16 12:41:34 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

My son is dysgraphic and going into 5th but can write when he does not have
the pressure of time hanging over him.  We gave him an alphasmart last year
but our SpEd teachers didn't know how to implement the alphasmart into his
cirriculum. Hope they can figure it out when school starts.
     I am having concerns also that should the requirement of writing by hand
be illimated all together he will not learn some very necessary skills. I
feel he should be required to copy notes or take notes in regular class but
have the Resourch Teacher provide a legible an/or typed copy to study at
home.
     He must learn some of the basic note taking processes and to be
accountable also. If everything is done for him he will depend on others too
much and give up on doing the work himself.
    I would like to know what others feel about this.  Libby

SUBJECT:  Dysgraphia
Chat   Date:  97-08-16 16:50:33 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, everyone. Well it is going to happen for us. A CHAT to discuss our
concerns regarding children who have difficutly with written expression.
         The Dysgraphia/ Written Expression Chat will start in September.
         It will occurr on Wednesday's at 10pm EST. I hope this will be a
good slot for parents on both coasts.
         I will post the chat room where we will meet here in this message
area. So keep checking the posts.
         I am hoping that we can find answers to our questions through our on
line chats.. What works for the diffrerent ages and abilities for our
children.
         I thought the first chat should be an introduction chat. I am
looking forward to meeting everyone and hope that many will come an
contribute their ideas to the chat.
        Will post place and time  soon. Barbara/ your online host for
Dysgraphia/Written Expression Chat

SUBJECT:  Re:just a thought   Date:  97-08-16 18:11:44 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Just to add a another thought here.  I'm a parent of a dysgraphic child (12),
but not so myself - although I may be at this point.  I've been keyboarding
for approximately 30 years, and at this point, writing has become pretty
laborious.  I reverted to printing everything when I can't keyboard - my
cursive is totally illegible.  I think that over time you forget to use
certain muscles when you aren't using them for handwriting.  The fine motors
aren't so fine anymore!  This certainly isn't a scientific observation :-)
So, although our daughter is being encouraged to use the keyboard for final
work, I request that she print or cursive in most other situations where time
is not the problem.  Just another gut instinct from Mom.

SUBJECT:
Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-08-16 21:54:13 EST
From:  Kskap

Could someone enlighten me as to what 'Alphasmart' is?  Thanx!

SUBJECT:
Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-08-17 03:16:43 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, the alphasmart Pro is a word processor. It allows the student to type
in their work durring the school day and then download the information into a
computer at school or at home. It essentially alllows the student to bypass
the writing process in school. After downloading into the computer the child
then can maniputlate the text, by adding to it, enlarging the fonts, then
spell checking the text and lastly printing out the text. This prevents the
child from having to do laborus rewrites. There are keys that can be
corresponded to each class on the alphasmart. Thus the child can assign text
to each subject at school/ or use the keys to make subgroups in certain
subjects. The alphasmart Pro comes availible with different keyboards to
accomedate certain handicaps or handedness. It is about the same size as a
small lap top and took a lot of punishment without breaking durring the
school year ( my youngest tested this personally).
     Both my daughters use this technology in school. It is less costly for
the schools and parents then providing lap tops. It has it's draw backs.
There is only a six line display screen that the child can view when
keyboarding text. It does not have spell check and the font is small as well
on the display screen.
      There are other processors that accomplish the same functions. One is
the Dream Writer, another is the Cowriter. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:just a thought   Date:  97-08-17 03:31:45 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, I think the concerns expressed regarding regression of handwriting and
acquiring note taking abilities should be thought out for the individual
child.
         Just from my point of view, how much you allow your child to do
handwritten work such as note taking should be individually addressed. There
shouldn't be an all or none answer here. I have one child who may take
handwritten notes occasionally when she feels she can do it and not
comprimise her ability to hear and learn the material in class. Note takers
for her will fill in the missing parts wheather she writes or keyboards the
information.
        That is not true for my youngest child. She has said that before
using keyboarding for all her work. The frustration with trying to take notes
and listening to the teacher was beyound her abilities. She complained of
frequent handcramping that also got in the way of how fast she could hand
write the information. She writes about the same speed as she did in third
grade, but she types on an average day about 30 wpm, and on a good day can do
60 wpm. So I have chosen to follow what is best for my children.
        I think that applies to all the parents here. You must access what
works for your child. For some handwritten work is still an opiton, but for
some you may find that they don't learn as much durring the school day
because they are concentrating on the mechanics of writing.
        Just thought I would give my spin on what we have experienced.
Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:just a thought   Date:  97-08-17 09:43:22 EST
From:  Grace2al

1st. With spelling if he writes the words once he has it, if not it doesn't
sink in. We've noticed this with alot of items, finding a happy medium is a
process.
2nd. In class the teacher had given him and a few others the outlines that
the others were going to do. She would leave one space open for the kids to
fill in themselves or highlight as they got to certain parts while others
wrote the whole pg.
3rd. I think his writing skills regressed primarily due to the introduction
of cursive last year which he had not yet completely internalized. With
practice he is getting it back quickly. In his curric. I've replaced the
"handwriting" book with the journaling exercise.
4th. We had both an Alpha pro and a Dreamwriter last year. His school has a
whole cabinet full of the Dream's. we preferred it as he is getting older he
can do more on it and the cost was not very different.
5th with all the free time we have Home Schooling he is practicing coloring,
building and many other areas that he thrives in and feeling very positive. I
know that most people cannot do this and  until a couple months ago I never
even wanted to, but when I saw the increased(multiplied) written work of
fourth grade I started looking for alternatives.
In conclusion( my coffee is kicking in) dysgraphia effects all areas of
education, from written assignment to copying math. T. seems to do better
with understanding the term Dysgraphic then the whole NLD syndrome which is
his real problem.  See Ya.

SUBJECT:  Dreamwriter   Date:  97-08-17 18:29:01 EST
From:  Lynnebl

Barb,  do you have an e-mail address for more information about the
DreamWriter?  and the CoWriter?

I find several pages of info about the AlphaSmart Pro in Richard Wanderman's
website http://www.ldresources.com/

SUBJECT:  Re:Handwritingf vs. keyboard   Date:  97-08-17 18:38:43 EST
From:  McCarthyA

FYI all, I have been told that if keyboarding replaces handwriting too early,
children grow up to be unable to read anyone else's handwriting.  They only
recognize type face.

SUBJECT:  Re:Handwritingf vs. keyboard   Date:  97-08-17 21:15:35 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I have been told that if keyboarding replaces handwriting too early,
children grow up to be unable to read anyone else's handwriting.  They only
recognize type face.>

I'm interested to hear what someone says about this.  It makes no sense to
me.

SUBJECT:  Re:Dreamwriter   Date:  97-08-18 07:49:49 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Lynebl, KevisB in has kindly provided the information for acessing a
www site for the dreamwriter. It is as follows: dreamwriter.com
                    Another wordprocessor his mentions is the laser Pc-5, the
www address is perfectsolutions.com.
                   I glanced over these two sites and there may be some
advantages to these systems vs.the alphasmart.
                   Has anyone actually used any of the wordprocessors and can
reccommend one over another. Is one processor better for different disabilty
over another? Any parents want to share here. When viewing the processors I
noted the dreamwriter looks as though the viewing screen is lager.
Take Care All School Starts Soon Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Handwritingf vs. keyboard   Date:  97-08-18 08:05:44 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, it is an interresting concept, can someone not be able to read others
handwriting if they have only read typed print.
         Reading anyone elses handwriting is a skill that takes practice. I'm
a nurse and the joke about doctors handwriting is true for many people. Most
of the communication where I work in an ER is handwriten. It does take
practice to read somone elses handwriting, especially if the author's have
poor penmenship. I read scribble all day long that barely resembles proper
letter formation.
         Many times others will come together to decipher another persons
handwriting. Those that have difficulty reading written messages are those
that rarley have to depend on reading handwriten messages, so they don't take
the time to learn another person style.
         I've never read any studies regarding reading type causing loss of
the ability to read hand writen work. Could see it as a possiblity for future
study, but how much of any childs life in the future is going to be reading
someones elses handwriten work. Especially in the work force. Even the ER is
going to be all computer communication soon.
         I do think that each child needs to know the letters, how to print
and how to produce curisive writing, but no one learns to read another's
handwriting unless they have too. What is a bigger problem is having someone
else read your handwriting that is illegable. Maybe we should teach that as a
skill.  Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Organization & Study Skills   Date:  97-08-18 18:28:45 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

We seem to be spending a lot of time on assistive technology. I heard we are
going to have a Dysgraphia Chat in Sept. We should be concentrating on the
basics of what most children posses who have learning disabilities and that
is disorganization.
    Some time ago Ratatat posted a color coding system to help our children
keep themselves in order. This summer my husband and I attended a Study
Skills seminar at the Landmark School for Dyslexics.
    I would be happy to share some of the ideas we picked up about filing
papers and taking notes when the time comes.
    It seems in elementary school the teachers are still using the marble
journals. This seems to be a waste of time since in as early as 2nd grade the
students should be getting used to filing their work in a 3 ring notebook.
    We as parents need all the help we can get to keep our children's work
sorted so we can keep them on track. Haven't we all driven back to school to
get a text book or journal for homework.
    We should be asking our schools for additional text books so we spend
less time running around needlessly.
    I have just written my son's 5th grade teacher and explained in depth
what his disability is what his weaknesses and strengths are and that I wish
to keep the channels as open as possible. Our school starts on Sept. 3rd.
Some of you may have already begun school.
    I am sorry if I seem to be rambling on but there are so many areas we
must be concerned about. If our chat is to be constructive we need to set our
goals of what this chat is to accomplish and how we are to go about it.
   Some others may have a better technical understanding of what dysgraphia
is than I have but as parents we all have some very in depth experience which
if our hands are joined we can create a true help center for those who are
just learning that their children have dysgraphia.  Libby

SUBJECT:
Re:Organization & Study Skil   Date:  97-08-18 19:01:26 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Libby, you made some wonderfull points.
                  As I reread the posts here I see that many parents are at
different stages with their children. Some have children just in the begining
years and like you some are finishing the last few years in elementary
education. Then there are the parents who are into the next faze which
includes middle and high school.
                 At chats we should be able to help each other with the
different areas that concern our children. For some orgnaization is no longer
a major issue, but we remember when and will be able to help explore those
concerns. Remedation for handwriting is another hot issue that bears looking
into for the younger dysgraphic child. For the older child other issues will
need more focus, organization is an issue, but it requires some different
stratagies. Lets not forget college is arround the corner for many of us
also.
                 I hope that we can help each other.
                 Know one should feel they know more then another here. There
are four of us in my family with dysgraphia and we are all a little different
in our needs. So each of us is an expert in what works for us as a group and
individually. The same holds true for everyone. My husband and sons
observations are just as knowlegable and helpfull ( niether has an LD). I've
learned never turn down a suggestion of help. Hope to see all at the chat in
September. Barb



SUBJECT:  Re: Chat time and place   Date:  97-08-19 05:47:15 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Everyone, Dysgraphia/Written Expression Chat will begin September 3rd.
It will be located in the teachers lounge area of Aol. Keyword TEN, then
click on teachers lounge. Then click on the WORK ROOM, our chat will start
there at 10pm.
      I hope many of you will come and share your concerns and ideas.
      I thought for the first chat we could get together and have an open
chat regarding dysgraphia, rather then focus on one area of concern. I am
hoping by leaving the first chat open we can then chose more specific chat
topics that arise from the first chat.
      Please bring your ideas/ problems/ solutions that worked for you/ as
well as funny stories.
      Take Care all hope to see everyone at: Dysgraphia/ Written Expression
Chat
                                                               Keyword: TEN
                                                               Location:
Teachers lounge/ Work Shop
                                                               Time:
Wednesday September 3,
                                                                         10pm
EST ( please ajust the time for your time

zone)
Barb ( host for /dysgraphia/written expression chat)


SUBJECT:  Re:Organization & Study Skil   Date:  97-08-19 09:38:14 EST
From:  PBTanguay

I agree with Barb that our kids are all at different levels.  I love this
board and learn a lot, pick up a lot of ideas, and I'd hate to lose the
technology solutions.  That's the future for everyone, and if it makes things
easier for our kids' then score one for the home team.  My husband and I
always talk about the fact that we are so glad that our NLD daughter was born
when technology can make things just a bit easier for her.

This particular folder is set up for dysgraphia/writing problems.  However, I
would love to see a separate folder started for organization & study skills.
I'm sure we'd all have a lot to share and learn.

SUBJECT:  Re:Word prediction   Date:  97-08-19 13:13:41 EST
From:  Peggy 620

Co:Writer is a wonderful word prediction program which works with most word
processing programs.  It is available for Mac and was supposed to be
available for Windows this summer.  It is easy to use (my child has used it
since the beginning of second grade).  It speaks the words for non-readers.
The only problem is the price (about $280) but we got our school district to
buy it.  BTW, it is made by Don Johnston, Inc.

SUBJECT:  Writing    Date:  97-08-19 15:58:31 EST
From:  DaysOfPooh

Im not sure what other schools around the country are using to teach the
little ones in Kindergarten and 1st grade to write . Our school uses
D'Nealian which to me  seems to be a combo of printing and cursive , adding
the tails to letters in preparation for connecting the letters .
It seems that for kids with problems writing that this method has only made
it worse , not only do they have to figure out the line and circle and where
they go but now they have to add in curves .
How do I get the school to understand the concept of " be happy she wrote
something and that you can almost figure it out , forget it if she didnt put
a tail on the end of a letter " .

Also , does anyone have any suggestions on how to help a 6 year old hold her
pencil correct ? She does a modified tripod with her thumb wrapped all the
way around . She can do a tripod grasp if reminded but it lasts for a minute
before the thumb comes around . She also keeps her wrist and arm so tight ,
they dont move at all . ( Ive tried to get her to pretend her arm is a snake
and her wrist is its head and it has to move to allow the rest of its body to
move )

So much to learn and understand , it seems almost overwhelming but you all
seem so wonderful !!

nancy

SUBJECT:  Re:Handwritingf vs. keyboard   Date:  97-08-19 18:19:17 EST
From:  LMCGZ

I have often wondered if the reason my son produces such short "young"
sentences is because the action of handwriting was toooo much labor and not
enough reward.... he just hasn't developed as a writer ( last testing results
placed at 8yrs old ..he will be 14 in Nov..hes  in a college bound program
and keeps his grades in the 80's)   He has not been allowed to use a keyboard
at school..this year that will change..Im seeking private placement.   When
he dictates to me his writing is still young....its like he is trying to save
me from having to put a lot of words down.....but ask him about some subject
area ..pick one any one and he can go on and on and on, using his great
vocabulary all the way..but if he thinks its going to be transformed into
writing he clams up.  I have to believe the mechanics of writing and the
emotions attatched to it (and well his LD) have kept him from developing as a
writer.
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:Organization & Study Skil   Date:  97-08-20 06:08:24 EST
From:  Ratatat

< However, I would love to see a separate folder started for organization &
study skills.>

That's a great idea!  I've got a folder that should be available for a new
topic soon.  I'll try to grab it and start it for you!

SUBJECT:  Re: Chat time
and place   Date:  97-08-20 06:10:37 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Dysgraphia/ Written Expression Chat
                                                               Keyword: TEN
                                                               Location:
Teachers lounge/ Work Shop
                                                               Time:
Wednesday September 3,
                                                                         10pm
EST ( please ajust the time for your time

zone)>
Barb, I just want to say how great it is that you
are hosting this chat.  It's is much needed and you will do a WONDERFUL
job!

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia Chat   Date:  97-08-20 22:16:58 EST
From:  CHSMom

Hi Barb -
can hardly wait for the chat!  glad to see you made it happen.
Debbie

SUBJECT:  Re:Handwritingf vs. keyboard   Date:  97-08-21 07:02:47 EST
From:  Meyersons4

I noticed this same immaturity in my 13-year old daughter's work.  She's very
bright, and expresses herself well verbally, but her writing always sounded
like it was written by a third grader.

We've been working a lot on writing this summer (not by choice, she had 3
books she was required to read AND write a report on before school begins).
We started by having her dictate to me over the keyboard.  I insisted that
she use more sophisticated vocabulary ("it should sound like you've written
it!") than she was used to. I've also spent a lot of time reading her work
aloud to her, since her "ear hears better than her eyes see." She is becoming
more used to the sound of those sentences being written by her. Since we
began, I've noticed an improvement in both her writing vocabulary and her
oral vocabulary.  She's also pushing me away from the computer (so she can
take over) earlier now than she was when we began.
Hope does spring eternal!

Mary



SUBJECT:  Re:Organization & Study Skil   Date:  97-08-21 09:30:21 EST
From:  Ratatat

<However, I would love to see a separate folder started for organization &
study skills.  I'm sure we'd all have a lot to share and learn. >

I've been able to "grab" the empty folder and start this topic for you.

SUBJECT:
Re:Writing    Date:  97-08-21 12:41:03 EST
From:  Peggy 620

Re the grip problem:

There are rubbery grips available which may help.  The best kind, I think,
are soft rubber  with a hole in the middle for the pencil.  There are
indentations for the thumb and first finder with a small L or R so they can
be used by either left or right-handed people.  They are sometimes called
peanut grips because they loosly resemble a peanut in size and shape.

SUBJECT:
Re:Handwritingf vs. keyboard   Date:  97-08-21 12:43:20 EST
From:  Peggy 620

I wonder how he would do with one of the new programs which type on the
computer when you dictate?

SUBJECT:  Organization & Study Skil   Date:  97-08-21 14:10:13 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

That's great you were able to get a folder. I wish I knew exactly where it is
though.
Just yesterday I spoke to our Elementary School Principal and she said she
would be interested in looking at the material I brough back from Lankmark.
One of the books "Study Skills Guide" can be purchased for $25 by calling
Landmark Publications. They have a Web site www.landmark.com.
        Their Study Skills Guide is a very systematic formula for
organization and note taking.ie. 2 column note taking,  Main Idea/ details.
It is meant to work with all the teachers presenting the material in the same
format.
         I have set up a filing system to accomodate all the paper work which
will come home. We have also set up a Zip-Up 3 ring note binder.
        If interested I will add more in future.  Libby


SUBJECT:  Help for Dysgraphics   Date:  97-08-24 21:19:16 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

I am wondering if there is a method or therapy which can help a child with
dysgraphia write better? Has anyone learned how best to teach a student with
this disability? Is there a model IEP? or is this disability so unexplored
that there are no real answers.
     I am looking forward to chating  with you on Sept 3rd in the Workroom.
Libby


SUBJECT:  Re:Help for Dysgraphics   Date:  97-08-24 22:38:13 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, we have been addressing that issue for the past couple of years.
     How do you get your child to write sentences and stories that tells the
ideas the child expresses?
    I noticed with my girls that the content was short and to the point ( no
spare words). If three words answered the question then that is what the kids
wrote down.
   Getting their thoughts out onto the paper is a real challange.
    Funny part is I really notice what I write now. When I have to write a
summary at work it takes me 2 hours or more..When I noticed that for others
20minutes top will produce the same work. It is laborous to produce the
written word onto paper.
    When examining what takes so much time for me  is that I must write with
some degree of legibility and no spelling errors. That is time comsuming. It
is frustrating. Add in making it all sound like it makes sence and conveys
the thoughts I want expressed. No wonder our kids have difficulty.I at least
understand what is occurring with me.
    Writing should be less work. I think it helps to be able to see other
children's written work. My girls seemed to  get a better idea of what type
of written work is expected of them. I use my girls note takers notes to
accomplish this. When the girls look at thier notes I show them the same
information written by a contemporay. It has helped the girls now write much
longer sentences.
    I don't know if anyone else has noted that when viewing the written work
on a computer with bigger fonts (size 24) the writting process seems to flow
better. Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia Chat   Date:  97-08-24 22:45:02 EST
From:  Mars000210

He everyone, I'm excited too about the up comming chat.
Thank you Ratatat and ChsMOM for the words of encouagment.
If you noted my absence here my computer went out on me again
Numbe one son states he has fixed again.
Lets hope for good.
See everyone at the chat September 3
                                     at 10 pm EST
                                     Keyword: Teacher
                                     in : Teachers lounge
                                     who: Host Barb/ mars000210
                                             and all parents/ kids / friends
are wellcome
Take Care/ bring your ideas / your questions/ lets find answers together :)
Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Help for Dysgraphics   Date:  97-08-24 22:52:24 EST
From:  Lynnebl

My 12-year-old son has a modification that typed homework will be accepted.
I have noticed that sentences he handwrites are very simple using only three
or four words.  The ones he types on the computer are complex, require
commas, and contain prepositional phrases.  He has by-passed the laborious
task of operating a pen.  I wish we had discovered this sooner.  Eventually
we will have to incorporate computer use at school.

SUBJECT:  Resource Room
teacher   Date:  97-08-25 01:13:10 EST
From:  Kskap

I'm pretty new to this board, and after browsing through the other message
boards, I have a bunch of questions and comments:

1) I see that most of the people who post here are parents of kids who have
dysgraphia/writing problems.  Is this message board open for teachers too?
I'm definitely getting a lot of great ideas.  How about the chat room?  On
the one hand, I don't want to 'intrude' if it's for parents only, but on the
other hand, it really would give me a lot of insight and info. for working
with my students.

2) A large percentage of the messages discuss handwriting vs. keyboarding.  I
find it interesting because I have a sister who has always struggled with
writing problems.  She was first tested when she was in 12th grade.  She's
very bright and compensated pretty well, but of course it's such a pity that
she wasn't tested 'til 12th grade.  Now, as an adult, she often corresponds
via the internet (I'm sure she'll be interested in this message board!), and
she said that she finds it a lot easier to express herself in writing this
way (She does not touch-type, though).  I have also found that at times,
especially when she's not under pressure to write (like if she was writing an
informal letter) she could write very well, while at other times, she got
stuck right away.  Is this the case with other people too?  By the way, she
was always a good speller.  Her problem was more the motor end of it.  She
often thinks a lot faster than she can put it all down on paper; then the
frustration builds, and the cycle continues.
    All of this makes me wonder how much time I should spend working with my
dysgraphic students on typing skills.  My time with each student is limited,
so it's all a juggling act.  Is it better to work on typing and keyboarding
rather than spending the time on handwriting and handwritten assignments?
Since any new thing I take on will be at the expense of something else, how
much time and energy do you think I should devote to typing?

3) Related to my 2nd question - Obviously there's no one method for everyone.
But in general, it seems from what everyone's saying that keyboarding is
often easier than writing by hand for people w/ dysgraphia.  Are there times
when this is not the case?  Are there some students (auditory learners) who
would benefit from just listening and having s/o else take notes for them,
instead of writing notes by hand or using a keyboard?

Jennifer

SUBJECT:  Re:Resource Room teacher   Date:  97-08-25 09:22:09 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Jennifer, I'm so sorrrrrrryyyyyy. I should have included TEACHERS in my
hello for the chat time message. PLEASE COME. It is open to everyone.
Wheather you have writing problems or not. Everyone is welcome. Problems with
written expression encompass such a wide range of children and adults and if
it is a problem for us it creates problems for others. Teachers/ boss's and
coworkers.
       It is nice to have everyones input.
       You raised some great questions. Ones parents struggel with everyday.
How much time do we devote to remediation of handwriting, when does
keyboarding start and handwriting issues take a back seat. When do you teach
keyboarding and what methods works well for a certain age group? My
perspective is differs from others, but that is because of when we had the
oportunity to  begin those interventions such as keyboarding.
        My thoughts is that when handwritng interfers and becomes too
frustrating for the individual child keyboarding should begin. Handwriting
got in the way of learning the material becuase it took too much time. So
last summer I bought a program our local community college. My children
learned keyboading on a self paced disk for our computer. No stress. Since
they were in middle school a 7th and 8th grades it worked well for us.
Looking back I wish we had started it sooner.
        Any interveniton should included two elements. So that the dysgraphic
child learns the material presented in the classroom. Number #1 The
intervention should save time. So not marking down for spelling errors in
work present in class eleminates the need to concentrate and waste time on
how to spell rather then on the idea being formualted. Note takers for the
dysgraphic child  prevents them from concentrating on completing the work,
but they miss understanding the material presented. (these are just two
examples) Number #2 The intervention should be easy for the child and the
teacher. Thus we found that using easy statagies, note takers unsing NCR
paper didn't require a lot of work for anyone. An wordprocessor to use all
the time for all written work, the same organization for all classes. An easy
way of communicating concerns to the parents and back to you. Stratagies that
the child could do independtly. Like asking the child next to him for help
occsiaonlly rather then asking the teacher for everything.
     I know I might not have answered all your questions. Please come to the
chat. We need your input too. I have many firends who are teachers. They have
always kept me level in my thinking on what is workable within the school
day. My children have benefited from theirr advice and support. Take Care/
another school year begins today Barb


SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia Chat, etc.   Date:  97-08-25 18:50:33 EST
From:  Lynnebl

Barb,
I am learning so much from this board to help my 12-year-old with dysgraphia
and look forward to the Chat September 3.  Unfortunately, the chat comes a
day too late for my next IEP meeting and I would like to ask you and Ratatat
a couple of questions:

1.  My son is completely mainstreamed, has never attended resource, and this
is the reason the school says he doesn't need any goals and objectives for
his written expression.  I read that every IEP must include goals.  What do
know on this issue?
2.  My son does not want to be singled out but his expressive writing is much
faster and more elaborate when he types.  How do you incorporate computer
work in the classroom?  I am thinking about having the school provide a
device such as the Dreamwriter so that he could type at his desk.  At the
present, he is only allowed to type his homework on our computer at home.
Classwork must be handwritten.
3.  The teachers require an extraordinary amount of copying to cut down on
paper usage.  I feel this is busy work.  My son does not have to copy
according to his IEP; if necessary, his assignments are xeroxed (I have to
address this modification at the IEP because it is not being followed).  I
would like to stop the entire class from having to copying.  In my ideal
world, TEACHING AND LEARNING would take the place of copying.  Any ideas on
how I could accomplish this in the name of inclusion??
Thanks, Lynne

SUBJECT:  Re:Resource Room teacher   Date:  97-08-25 19:13:52 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

There are two books that I would recommend reading: Dysgraphia"Why Johnny
Can't Write" a Parents and teachers handbook. there is a great section called
"Teacher Be Award" The cautions the teachers that a Dysgraphic student is not
purposefully being lazy or forgetful. he is truly struggling to write and
cannot easily punctuate or spell well. There is also a section on type writer
and computer modifications. This is a must read and costs $10 from Pro-Ed. I
am always amazed this book is not in the libraries of all schools that are
"Included."

Another book"I received today also from Pro-Ed called: Overcoming Dyslexia,
2nd Edition (1996) has  over 30 pages on "Overcoming dysgraphia". This is the
first time I have read any concrete information that tells us how to teach,
handle and help a student with Dysgraphia. Training in the D'Nealian
handwriting skills is recommended. A testmony states that Dysgraphia which is
a form of Dyslexia was overcome during a 14 week cycle of intensive training
due to the D'Nealian handwriting training. I do not know about this at all I
am telling you what the author,Dale Jordan says.
     It seems that correction must come early. If it doesn't then the
resistance to writing sets in and it is very difficult to overcome the stigma
and frustration of not being able to write and express ones self well.
      This book also says that the essential survival skill for individuals
with Dys. is knowing how to edit their own written work for errors. These
students usually know what they want to write. They don't know how to put
these ideas onto the page.
     There is a great deal more but I am afraid of copy write infringements.
This is also a must read  and school resource department must have.
     It does seem that we have taken over Study skills. Maybe we should go
back to our original place. Libby




SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia Chat, etc.   Date:  97-08-26 07:44:36 EST
From:  Ratatat

<1.  My son is completely mainstreamed, has never attended resource, and this
is the reason the school says he doesn't need any goals and objectives for
his written expression.  I read that every IEP must include goals.  What do
know on this issue?>

An IEP is *not* an IEP without Goals and Objectives, regardless of the
placement of the special education student.  ALL Individualized Education
Plans *must* include the following:

1.  Current Level of Performance (a description of your child)
2.  Goals and Objectives
3.  Special Education Placement
4.  Related Services (if required)
5.  Time and Duration of Services
6.  Evaluating the IEP (Objective criteria and evaluation procedures)

SUBJECT:
Re:Dysgraphia Chat, etc.   Date:  97-08-26 07:51:37 EST
From:  Ratatat

<2.  My son does not want to be singled out but his expressive writing is
much faster and more elaborate when he types.  How do you incorporate
computer work in the classroom?  I am thinking about having the school
provide a device such as the Dreamwriter so that he could type at his desk.
At the present, he is only allowed to type his homework on our computer at
home.  Classwork must be handwritten.>

Either a Dreamwriter or AlphaSmartPro would be appropriate.  If your son
*needs* these assisitve technology devises in order to recieve academic
benefit, then the school must allow it.  Get it into his IEP.  I am often
amazed at the resistance schools give about things like this when using a
computer for dysgraphic students is *on the top of the list* for
accommodations granted to students in college!

<3.  The teachers require an extraordinary amount of copying to cut down on
paper usage.  I feel this is busy work.  My son does not have to copy
according to his IEP; if necessary, his assignments are xeroxed (I have to
address this modification at the IEP because it is not being followed).  I
would like to stop the entire class from having to copying.  In my ideal
world, TEACHING AND LEARNING would take the place of copying.  Any ideas on
how I could accomplish this in the name of inclusion?? >

If this is in the IEP and it is not being followed, you absolutely do need to
address this.  Requiring students to do copy work is mind-numbing.  But,
requiring students who have dysgraphia to do so is educational
mal-practice... it can actually cause harm to the learning process.  And,
school is about learning, not copying.  I would advise you to stick to the
issue of *your* child.  Though its so tempting to try to "fix the system" for
all children's benefit, and whenever possible should be attempted, just don't
let it get in the way of getting your own child's needs met.

You might want to visit the Special Education Library and download a few
files on IEP regulations, the laws, etc.

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia Chat, etc.   Date:  97-08-26 11:08:09 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, this is just my opinion the interventions are the most important part
of the IEP. They are the survival techniques that allow them to produce their
work with less frustration.
         At my team meetings I presented and wrote goals and intervetnions
that I felt were nessessary for them to succeed in school with least amount
of frustration. All of my goals and interventions were placed either in the
504 plan for one child and on the IEP for the other child. Keep in mind it is
not what you want or what the teacher wants, it is what the child needs that
should be in thier plan. There should be clear goals and interventions in any
Iep  or 504 plan.
         In the previous post there were some excellent books mentioned. Read
them and then pick out the interventions you think will be the most help to
your child. That's how I wrote my interventions. I thought about the school
day and tried to make the intervetions easy for my child and the teacher to
accomplish.
         His Iep should have clear cut goals and interventions listed.
         Since he is 12 years old remedation of handwriting might not be an
issue you want to address, that usually is done for the younger child in
elementary school ( though I know many parents who believe that is an issue
they want addressed for the older dsygraphic child). Since my two children
are at the end of the middle school years and the other just started high
school you may want to look at the dream writer. We use a alphasmart Pro ( it
is very similar wordprosesor). Keyboarding skills are needed.. Formualting
intervetions to allow him to concentrate on listening in class rather then
writing notes or keyboarding notes ( have note taker using NCR paper).
Interventions for keeping him organized ( my girls use resource this past
year for the first time). They use resource time to finish tests, complete
classwork, organize their note books. It was used like an old fashioned study
hall. They have in their plans that is how resourse is to be used. So when
they go to resource they chose how to use the time ( the teacher is there
just to add guidence if the girls ask).
    Take out a piece of paper. Make two colums one side problem then put a
goal under it, across from goal have a secound colum that lists intervetions.
I found that one intervention sometimes covered several problems or goals. I
tried to think of the interventions that would be easy for  my child to do
and easy for the teacher to do as well. The dream writer should eleminate a
lot of problem areas. No lost papers ( organization), types faster then
writes ( eleminates slow handwriting speed, eleminates repetitious, laborous
handwriten rewrites), These are just a few areas that can be addressed. Call
another team meeting request it in writing, at the meeting request an
evaluation for assistive technology ( they do seperate testing in our school
before providing assistive technology), discuss goals and intervetion you
want in his IEP. Back up your goals with facts, show how he needs these
intervetnions. They are reasonable. They should do them and if they dont'
tell them you disagree and call your sepecial education deptment for your
state and complain that the school will not make resonable accomedations and
is the school allowed to do this. They will help you get the accomedations
into your son IEP. Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia Chat, etc.   Date:  97-08-26 11:20:47 EST
From:  DIAGO2

I would like to address the problem of busy work copying from the board.  I
am an inclusion teacher and the parent of a dysgraphic child.  We do some
copying in my class - it is necessary. I allow my kids with processing
problems to use the computer to type compositions, etc.  We only have old
Apple lle machines but they can type with Appleworks.  I really don't care if
it is on their IEP or not - we make our own modifications.  It is easier for
the kids and for me.  Frustrated children are often behavior problems.  I
know alot of teachers will make the modifications if approached.  And it is
your child's right to have EVERYTHING on his IEP.  Force the issue.  The
teacher should be happier with the better grades and attitude he/she will
see.  Good luck!


SUBJECT:  IEPs   Date:  97-08-27 17:28:54 EST
From:  Kskap

As a resource room teacher in a private (religious) school, I'm somewhat
confused about how much of a role the IEP can and does play with my students.
We have a number of students who were tested through their local CSEs.  Some
of these students are eligible for OT, PT, or Speech, and some can be bussed
to local public schools for resource room services if their parents choose to
do so.  However, as far as I recall, the IEPs don't always include goals and
objectives or specific modifications.  What is included are the test results,
disability category, general interventions (resource, speech, etc.) and
related services.  The only modification that appears is a box that describes
what testing modifications should be made, if any.  Obviously, I meet with
parents and teachers and we discuss appropriate interventions.  I try to
impress on the teachers the importance of modifications to be made in the
classroom.  Do the parents have a *legal* right to insist that modifications
are specified and upheld, if the school is privately funded?  I have posted
similar questions on other boards and received some helpful info., but I'm
still not totally clear on this issue.  Please respond on this board, or
e-mail me.

SUBJECT:  Re:IEPs   Date:  97-08-27 21:23:55 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, IEP should have goals / objectives as well as interventions. If the
IEP has no clear goals listed and a plan with intervetions it would be
useless. It is a federal law that the IEP must have objectives/goals and
interventions as well as the quialfying dianosis.
         Private schools that do not recieve federal funding are exempt from
the federal laws that require an IEP for children who are diagnosed with a
learning disability. If a school recieves any federal funding is requied to
follow the federal laws regarding special education. Children who go to
private schools that do not recieve federal funding and still would like
services provided for their child can still be serviced, but the service will
be provided by the public shcool. The service can take place at the private
school or at the public school.
        As far as I can discern private school teachers ( again whose school
do not recieve federal funding) are not obigated to follow goals or
intervetions in a legal sence. While public school treachers who do not
follow an IEP plan would be considered out of complience and would be in
viloation of fereral laws and could be sued or the school system fined if a
parent so choose to file a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights. I would
assume in private schools the teachers are bound by the schools policy
regarding it's educational mandates for handling children with learning
disabilities. Hope this Helps Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:IEPs   Date:  97-08-27 21:43:26 EST
From:  Kskap

Thanks, Barb.  Your response helped clarify things for me!  Jennifer

SUBJECT:
Assistive devices/funding   Date:  97-08-28 22:23:36 EST
From:  Kskap

Does anyone know if a child in a private school can be entitled to receive
funding for an assistive device (such as Alphasmart Pro or something
similar)?  I know that some of my students are entitled to sp. ed. svces. and
was wondering if this funding wd. be available for them as well.

SUBJECT:
Re:Assistive devices/funding   Date:  97-08-28 23:49:48 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, that's a good question. Why not call the  deptment of special
education for your state and ask them. They would be able to tell you.
Another level would be the federal department of special education. Since
funding for assistive technology comes from them as well as the state, either
agency should be able to answer your question.
        Let us know what you find out. My children are in the public school
sector and so the process is well written in thier policies. Take Care
Barb.

SUBJECT:  Re:IEPs   Date:  97-08-29 07:23:31 EST
From:  Ratatat

<         Private schools that do not recieve federal funding are exempt from
the federal laws that require an IEP for children who are diagnosed with a
learning disability. >

Actually, Barb, there is an exception to this:  Title III of the Americans
with Disabilities act covers private, non-religious schools about the same
way as 504 does public schools with the exception of FREE.  Private schools
can charge or share the cost of some of their services *if* they create an
undue burden for the school for a qualified disabled student.

SUBJECT:  Re:IEPs   Date:  97-08-29 08:24:56 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Ratatat, could you give that too me in plain english. Sorry must have
wires crossed in my head / don't quite understand previous post. I would
really appreciate it. I would like to be able to understand the
responsiblities of the private school's in regard to special education. Thank
You Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Assistive devices/funding   Date:  97-08-29 11:11:09 EST
From:  Kskap

Hi!  Thanx, Barb & Ratatat for your info.  I'll get back to you when I find
out more.  Ratatat - what about private *religious* schools?

SUBJECT:  Re:IEPs   Date:  97-08-29 16:21:23 EST
From:  Ratatat

There are THREE separate laws being discussed here:

IDEA - Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which has specific
categories including the "other health impaired" category that is
specifically mentioned as a category for students with ADHD that is having a
*adverse* affect on their education in the Memorandum of 1991 from the U.S.
Department of Education and the Office for Civil Rights.  Educational plans
under this law are called Individualized Education Plans and are governed by
elaborate procedures and rules.

Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 - a broad civil rights law
which has a large body of rulings and court documentation supporting the
school's affirmative obligations to provide equal access to learning for
students with ADHD. Educational plans under this law tend to be school-based
classroom accommodations and procedures about medication dispersement.

ADA - the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.  This is another broad
civil rights law that goes further in it's general coverage than Section 504,
and is based on Section 504 law intent and rulings.  Under ADA, Title II
deals with non-discrimination issues in public schools and Title III deals
with the same in private (non-religious) schools.  Because there is such a
large body of documentation already existing for application of civil rights
law in the schools under Section 504, it is Section 504 that the schools will
implement for students with ADD.  Rarely would they need to go to ADA simply
because they already have practice and experience with 504, and because the
cover essentially the same things.



SUBJECT:  Re:Help for Dysgraphics   Date:  97-08-29 16:49:33 EST
From:  TChamb1008

I also would like a copy of a "model" IEP for dysgraphic 3rd grader, if
anyone has any ideas...

Tim

SUBJECT:  Re:IEPs   Date:  97-08-30 07:49:11 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, so if I understand the above information right private schools are not
fully exempt from providing services, either by implementing an IEP or a 504
plan,  for disabiled students. That they must provide those services, but if
it causes an undue financial burden, the schools can have access to funding
to ofset the costs for providing services to the child.
         The schools then could apply for funding to off set say for money to
purchase a  computer if a child requires it. Or funding for a special speech
and language personel / one that may need to give therapy in a childs native
language.
         Ratatat does that also mean private schools can't discriminate in
admission to thier schools of children who have disabilities? Are religious
based schools totally exempt, from discrimination issues or access to funding
for a student who has a diagnosed learning disability?


SUBJECT:  Re:Assistive devices/funding   Date:  97-08-30 23:26:00 EST
From:  Katt1976

From personal experience in my state (Georgia) the majority of private
schools do not receive state or federal funds, therefore most do not provide
funding for assistive devices.  This allows them, (they feel) that they do
not have to accommodate students with learning disabilities under Federal
law.  In fact, most private schools do not provide any services for LD
students.  What a shame.  They don't mind taking a few thousand dollars each
year for expenses....Katt

SUBJECT:  Re:IEPs   Date:  97-08-31 05:55:33 EST
From:  Ratatat

<         Ratatat does that also mean private schools can't discriminate in
admission to thier schools of children who have disabilities? Are religious
based schools totally exempt, from discrimination issues or access to funding
for a student who has a diagnosed learning disability?>

Let me give you an example.  Both of my kids have ADHD.  Both have been
educated in the private schools.  Both recieve accommodations such as
extended time on tests, and quiet place to test and study.  If they needed
books on tape, the school would provide them, and there are various other
"low impact" accommodations that are no trouble getting.

However, if I had a child who had *severe* dyslexia and needed someone to
read tests to them in addition to books on tape the private school might
balk.  They would probably ask that the parent split the cost of the extra
salary for the "reader."  Ditto if I had a child who was deaf and needed a
ASL interpreter.

As far as admissions goes, as long as the student is capable of handling the
work, (otherwise qualified after accommodation for disability) they must
accept them.  They do not have to alter their course requirements or
graduation requirements, but they do have to support the student with
reasonable accommodations such as those mentioned above.

Dr. Hallowell once said to me that one day soon the private schools are going
to have to really confront these issues.  He said, "What are they going to do
when they get a kid with an IQ of 150 who is a math prodigy yet can't read
beyond a 2nd grade level because of dyslexia?"  Good question.

What's interesting to me is that at the private school both of my children
will be attending this Fall I rarely see any kids who are physically
handicapped.  In a newly reconstructed portion of the campus they are up to
date on handicapped codes, etc., but if they had a kid come to the school in
a wheelchair they'd have some real problems.

So the short answer is, they cannot discriminate against someone because of
the disability if the person is otherwise qualified because of the ADA, Title
III.  And ADA would be applied much the same as 504 with the exception of the
FREE part of FAPE.

And religious schools do not have any of these affirmative obligations
*unless* they receive federal money of some sort, like a technology grant,
that provides a service/benefit to all the kids at the school.  Also, some
private religous schools have kids who have received financial aid that has
its origins in federal money, or even a scholarship or Pell Grant.  From what
I understand, if they accept those kids with that money, they need to follow
Section 504.  This would be true for a non-religious private school to re:
504.

SUBJECT:  Re:IEPs   Date:  97-08-31 07:13:51 EST
From:  Mars000210

Ratatat, thank you. Reading the law at times is confusing. Even though my
children are in public school I have always wondered what the private
school's obligartions were to children who have handicaping conditions.
           I wonder if the private schools realise that they may be turning
away some of the brightest students. I think that ralates to broader issues,
such as how disabilities are viewed by our culture. The general public
doesn't understand that having a disability doesn't mean that you are dumb.
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Handwritingf vs. keyboard   Date:  97-09-02 00:16:41 EST
From:  PPear31329

I have taken this whole summer to teach my son (12 years old) cursive
writing.  Everyone at school tells me he doesn't need to learn it and that
most of the things he sees in his life will be printed.  But at a meeting I
requested a O.T. and asked her specifically what her opinion was.  I also
explained to her my view on writing.  And she agreed with me whole heartedly.
You see I was slower at learning than most of the kids in my class.  All
through the lower grades I couldn't spell and it took me forever to print, so
I made my sentences smaller and less colorful than the other children.
Finally when I learned to write cursively words began to make sence to me,
and I saw them as whole words instead of seperate letters. (that were very
had to make)  The O.T. at my sons meeting explained it much better than I
ever could, but it has something to do with rhythm, and not having to pick up
the pencil, and going through the whole thought process four or five time in
a single word.  For the heck of it I began testing my son with smaller words
to see if it made a difference in his spelling.  (Guess what it does)  even
simple words like dad he writes much faster now, and doesn't have to think so
hard.  I hope this will help in school this year...
But I still have computer written assignment on his I.E.P. especially for
very long assignments.
And made sure he learned keyboarding last year.  I wish eveyone luck and say
a prayer for all  Thanks.....

SUBJECT:  thanks   Date:  97-09-03 07:33:10 EST
From:  DIAGO2

I have been following the posts all summer and am amazed to find my son
described so well.  I  contacted his school at the end of August  and they
had me fill out a permission slip for testing.  I wrote a summary of all of
your info and IEP suggestions.  The principal was most cooperative.  Nicholas
will be tested by the CSE as soon as school starts (it starts today).  She
also said his classroom teacher will make modifications even before he is
tested.  I anticipated a fight from his school (Catholic school) but the
principal assures me the OT teacher already comes in to the bldg. and the
district is most cooperative when she asks for help.  Let's hope so.

I have spent so much time as a teacher KNOWING something was wrong with my
child and so much time being told it is just a maturity problem that I can't
thank you enough for the support.  I am pleased to find there really is a
problem and there is a name for it.

SUBJECT:  Re:bullies    Date:  97-09-03 20:30:27 EST
From:  DDvorak102

I know the talk about bullies and teasing was done back in June, but i feel I
should say something
Bullies are everywhere, in public or private schools, and kids will tease no
matter what...
the key to changing it is to teach respect and understanding of one another's
differences
Have your local schools look into a program called CHARACTER COUNTS.
I do not have a learning disability but was teased for many years about being
short, but my self-esteem was enough to get me through because I knew I was
loved at home....dd

SUBJECT:  fine motor skills   Date:  97-09-03 21:28:15 EST
From:  Kskap

Hi everyone.  One of my resource students this year seems to have a writing
problem (probably more than one, but this one for sure).  Although he wasn't
officially diagnosed as dysgraphic, his testing shows that he has fine-motor
problem that makes writing difficult and frustrating for him.  He doesn't
write notes, and when he writes, his arm/hand muscles seem to tense up.  He
works slowly.
As far as I know, he doesn't have OT, although he could probably benefit from
it.  Although I'm not a trained OT, I'd like to do some exercises with him to
help him out with fine-motor skills.  Any ideas??

SUBJECT:  Re:fine motor skills   Date:  97-09-04 09:42:34 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Kspap, The OT could be of great help to this child. Exercises could be
of great benefit, but first you must determine were the problem orginates. Is
the dysgraphia due to poor signals being sent from the brain to the hands or
is it related more to the muscles that control the arms and hands.
                  Dysgraphic children regarless of cause would benefit from
simple exercises that strenghten the hand and arm muscles. Taking a large
stapler (the old fashioned hand held type, not table top) and having the
child just staple papers for several minutes a day. Squeesing a ball also
would help. In my oldest daughters school they took newpappers and turned
them sideways and used the columns to write the letters of the alphabet to
the size of the column. Using a standard size pencil with a grip, will also
work the muscle in the upper protion of the arm near the shoulder that helps
with the muscles in the hand for fine motor control ( try it, if you place
two fingers on the shoulder ( start at the top of shoulder and move the
fingers down about three finger withs down and press, then write with a
regular pencil you can feel the muscle move, but if you use a large,fat type
pencil this muscle does not move).
     It would be a good idea to also have this child evaluated for
dysgraphia. Then an OT evaluation could determine what stratagies might help
this child.
     Keep in mind an OT evaluation might not pick up dysgrahia that is
related to processimg problems. My childrens OT evaluations by the school did
not pick up that there was a fine motor deficet, but a neurologist and
neurophyschologist exam did, and all three were severly dysgraphic.
     Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  keyboarding   Date:  97-09-04 14:54:16 EST
From:  GlynFP1

At what point in a child's school career would an AlphaSmart Pro-type device
become helpful?  My son is starting 4th grade.  He practiced keyboarding this
summer and went from 13 wpm to 20 wpm with 95% accuracy.  When typing
individual words (as opposed to sentences) he types 28wpm.  Typing certainly
seems to help when he's transferring thoughts through the keyboard vs. when
he's writing by hand.  However, I don't think that he types fast enough yet
to make good use of an AlphaSmart Pro.  Any suggestions?

SUBJECT:  Re:fine motor
skills   Date:  97-09-05 18:24:44 EST
From:  McCarthyA

Ksap,

We have had some success with  Benbow neurodevelopmental exercises.  My son
is dysgraphic and dyspraxic (caused by an encephalopathy).  He has finger
agnosia, poor upper body strength and difficulties with tremorous actions in
his arms and hands.  Some of the exercises we've explored are the following:
pinch small objects like cheerios or rice using thumb/index finger and/or
middle finger opposition; scrunch a towel under the palms by using finger
flexors; use rolling pins to crush crackers or flatten play dough, keeping
hand open on the pin rather than using the handles; lite bright, peg boards
or other such games ( we like Fleas on fred or Bed Bugs); roll a one inch
ball of silly putty by cupping the hands together to form the sphere within
the hollows of the palms, keeping fingers curved; cup hands to roll a pair of
dice; cut playdough with a pizza cutter; oppose thumbs to each finger tip in
turn making a perfect circle with the two digits, raise to eyes to make play
glasses; squeeze the trigger of a spray bottle; play finger pattern games
where the child is instructed to lift/separate/bend straighten spcific
fingers.  Start by having the child place both hands on a table top to motor
plan movements before moving fingers in space; play tug of war with small
objects like laces, plastic coffee stirrers; pinch zip lock bags closed
without collapsing the web space; line up dominoes on their long/narrow side
so as to experience the "domino theory;" feed  or withdraw a pipe cleaner,
coffee stirrer, etc. through a narrow opening in cardboard or leather; play
pick up sticks; drop water from an eye dropper.  Also, sitting up in a
straight backed wooden chair, close to the table and making sure the writing
arm is well-supported can help.


SUBJECT:  IEP Accommodations   Date:  97-09-05 19:56:27 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

My son's is in the 5th grade and his resourch teacher has already suggest the
mandatory 5th grape writing test, given to all in the 5th grade, be modified.
I believe this writing exercise is graded on spelling and punctuation as
well. If for any reason it is not very leligable it will not be accepted.
Since he has dysgraphia the modifications will be for him to either dictate
his paragraph to her or he can type the composition. This writing exercise is
graded on spelling and punctuation as well.
    I thought this was wise and was glad the resource teacher was the one to
suggest this. I have heard so many other stories of  resistance to IEP
modifications.  Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:keyboarding   Date:  97-09-08 09:28:21 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Glyn, let him type in the kids chat rooms or the tutor room here on
AOL. It will increase his typing speed. The chat rooms have been great for my
kids, it forces them to not look at he keys when typing. It' the best
practice my children get. Just make use of parental controls. Take Care
Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:keyboarding   Date:  97-09-08 13:27:43 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Barb - couldn't agree more.  We're making great strides now that our daughter
goes to chat rooms regularly - but monitored ones only!

SUBJECT:  Alphasmart-How
to use?   Date:  97-09-08 17:36:55 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

My son's Resourch Teacher is not "computer literate" by her own admission.
She doen't have a clue how to incorporate the Alphasmart into the curriculum.

Can any of you give me specific excersises or lessons that can be done on
this word processor? My son is in the 5th grade and has reading and spelling
in the resource room. Libby

SUBJECT:  Dysgraphia Chat   Date:  97-09-08 21:05:38 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

Did you know the dysgraphia chat room is still set up? Can it can be used at
any time? We had so much trouble in the Work room I wouldn't want to go back
to that location. If it can be use at any time our questions could be
answered immediately.

SUBJECT:  Re:keyboarding   Date:  97-09-09 01:28:35 EST
From:  CHSMom

I've tried to get my 10 year old to do that, but he won't, says he types to
slow and can't spell, so it takes him too long.  Plus he's dyslexic, and
although his reading has improved tremendously, he can't keep up with the
chats.  Any suggestions?  Thanks
Deb

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart-How to use?   Date:  97-09-09 01:31:53 EST
From:  CHSMom

My son just got an AlphaSmart Pro (yeah) but he is in the 10th grade.  He
uses it to take notes and record his homework.  Talk about empowerment.  My
5th grader is also in Resource for spelling.  He has weekly spelling words
that he has to work on each day, writing 5 times, putting into sentences,
etc.  Have your son type the work into the alphaSmart Pro instead of writing
them.  Do they write stories?  He can use the Alpha... for that also.  what
does his IE say.  Didn't it specify when he is to use it?  It doesn't matter
of his teacher is computer literate - she is not going to be using it, your
son is.  Hope this helps.

SUBJECT:  Re:keyboarding   Date:  97-09-09 07:58:08 EST
From:  PBTanguay

Deb - the chat room activity actually moves too fast for our daughter also.
Instead she checks out the people in the chat room by reading their profiles,
then strikes up a separate chat using IMs with one who looks interesting.
This has worked very well for her, and is much, much easier for her to
manage.  It's worked almost too well!  Last week I caught her on the
telephone to Texas!  This kid that she had met wanted to call her - she said
she wasn't allowed to give out her address and telephone number - so she
called him instead!

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart-How to use?   Date:  97-09-09 08:37:31 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, in the 5th grade my kids did a lot of ditto work. Tell your son to
type the answers only. Then when he downloads at home correct any spelling
errors then. Tell him to type the words no matter if he knows how to spell it
correctly or not. The sentence from the alphasmart may be short even just a
couple of words, the corrections can be done at home. That's how my kids use
it. When you print it out,modify it, after completion, print it out,  then
staple it to the blank ditto. So much easier. Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:keyboarding   Date:  97-09-10 00:00:32 EST
From:  CHSMom

Uh oh, Pam, better watch out, lol.  Thanks for the idea.

SUBJECT:  Re:keyboarding   Date:  97-09-10 09:40:26 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello everyone. I want to thank everyone for comming to the chat last week.
The room was a little too busy and thus we really didn't dicuss as many
topics as we could have.
                       Do to my lack of dexterity on the computer (do I have
LD's, yes, and they got in the way of me participating in the chat) I have
decided not to be the host for the formal dysgraphia chat.
                        Several parents have written me and suggested that
meeting in a private room might meet their needs more. So with that in mind
if anyone would like to chat, on Wednesday's at 10pm EST, please feel free to
come and chat informally in a private room, it will be listed as dysgraphia.
Take Care Barb



SUBJECT:  Re:keyboarding   Date:  97-09-10 09:53:44 EST
From:  Ratatat

<We're making great strides now that our daughter goes to chat rooms
regularly - but monitored ones only!>

Did you know that through the Parental Controls section of AOL you can limit
your child's access to areas on AOL?  Also, for my teenage daughter, I got
the screen names of her friends and entered them in the controls so that she
can IM and receive email with this pals ONLY.  Gives me a huge peace of mind.

And, I ditto that her typing skills have exploded because of this.
Especially with the IMs.  It's an immediate need to respond quickly and
accurately!  Cool.

SUBJECT:  Re:keyboarding   Date:  97-09-10 14:50:49 EST
From:  PBTanguay

<< Did you know that through the Parental Controls section of AOL you can
limit your child's access to areas on AOL? >>

Yes I was aware, and we have done so, but I'm really glad you mentioned it.
Many others may not be aware of this option, and it's wonderful :-)  It also
restricts their access to the web!

SUBJECT:  Re:Assistive devices/funding   Date:  97-09-12 14:50:10 EST
From:  Nannayoyo

When in Iowa, we received helped through the library for the blind.  They can
provide material on tape (and even a tape player from the Library of
Congress) for learning disabled kids that meet certain criteria not just
vision impairments.  There are other service organizations that can provide
assistance as well.

SUBJECT:  my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-14 15:30:12 EST
From:  VassDi

My daughter is in the second grade and hates to write.She can't hold a pencil
properly and last year her teacher said it was too late for her to learn
now.I signed a request for an OT evaluation and all the OT teacher did was go
to her class for ten minutes and say she didn't qualify.She also said that my
daughter had an unusual way of holding her pencil but that nothing could be
done except trying pencil grips.All summer I tried helping her and she used a
pencil grip but still can't hold the pencil properly and her handwriting is
messy.I have a meeting on Tuesday with the principal,teacher,and ESE
liason.Already talking with all three of them seperatly they say that her
grades are fine so there's no reason to have her tested.I disagree with
them.My daughter is avoiding writing all the time and cries everyday about
her hand hurting.Does anyone have any suggestions for me to help my daughter
and also what I can say to get the school to test her?Thanks.

SUBJECT:  Re:my
daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-14 20:53:40 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

  I can sympathize with you. It becomes very frustrating when you as the
parent know something is not exactly right but cannot identify what.
    I would recommend you put your concerns and requests in writing and send
copies to the principal and the head of the Special Education Department(if
your school district has one). Be persistent learn your rights.
    Because a child is making what they consider to be good grades is not
much of a reason not to test your child. If you are concerned about the
writing have the school screen for Dysgraphia and dyslexia. Then if the
results don't show anything. insist that you have your child screened outside
of school. The School must pay for this.
   Don't give up and don't get discouraged. Be tenacious and become
informed.There is a web site called Maple Hayes Hall Dyslexia School.The site
can be found by using www.yahoo as a search engine.  Key in "Maple Hayes
Hall" then go to the "Booklet on Dyslexia and your child."
   This site will throughly explain specific learning disabilities such as
Dysgraphia and will give examples of what the writing can look like.
    Good Luck.  Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-14 23:57:57 EST
From:  Lynnebl

Although the writing doesn't affect her grades now, it may when she gets
older.  And it is upsetting when the emotional aspect of a learning
disability is ignored.  Ask for the OT testing in writing (certified mail,
return receipt requested) and keep a copy for yourself.  If you don't agree
with the testing, your child had the right to an independent evaluation at
public expense.

SUBJECT:  Re:my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-15 00:19:57 EST
From:  CHSMom

What the OT did is not a formal evaluation, and does not meet the requirement
of evaluation as specified under IDEA.  Re pencil grip:  that is one of the
hallmarks of OT.  both of my son's had that as part of their goals.  At the
meeting, tell them that you want your child to receive the
Bruininks-Osteretsky Test of Motor Proficiency, which is the standard OT
test.  It tests Fine Motor Speeds, including Response Speed, Visual-Motor
Control, and Upper-Limb speed and dexterity, all of which impact writing.
The Developmental Test of Visual-Motor Integration should also be given.  It
tests spatial planning, which affects writing also.  I bet they'll be shocked
when you give them names of specific tests you want done.  Good luck, let me
know what happens.

SUBJECT:  Re:my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-15 11:08:31 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, just to add my two cents. This is a very formal process you are
starting when asking to have your child tested for her writing difficulties.
        Please read up on your rights as a parent.It will be a learning
process for you.  Start a notebook, in it keep all correspondence to and from
school in it. Even a sheet with phone calls recorded should be a part of this
notebook.
        For formal testing to be done the school will wait until you send
them a written letter requesting testing. In the letter explain your concerns
and your childs frustration and note what you have observed in detail. Be
factual don't put in I feel this or that, but rather this is what I have
observed, my child states this or doesthis/ that when doing her school work.
Look at your childs school work what do you see about it that may be
different from the norm. Save all your kids school papers, you can present
them later as documentation of difficuties your child is having.
         Call your state office of special education tell them you are just
now requesting formal testing for your child and are not sure of your states
interpertation of the special education process. Ask them for litertature
pertain to the laws esspecially the time lines and quialfying criteria for
special education as required by your state.
          I know that this seems like a lot to do, but in hind sight I wish
someone had told me this before I started out, not after the fact.
          Take Care Barb


SUBJECT:  dysgraphia chat   Date:  97-09-15 11:13:50 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello everyone, just thought I would mention again Wednesday's informal chat
in Private chat area of AOL. Keyword Dysgraphia. Time is 10pm EST, ajust time
for your zone.
        Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-15 14:48:23 EST
From:  KevisB

When the school does a formal OT evaluation, using the Bruininks-Osteretsky,
make sure they do the gross motor portion of the test as well as the fine
motor. My son was really within normal ranges on the fine motor, but was way
off on some of the gross motor subtests, such as balance (3 yrs behind) and
upper limb coordination (3 yrs behind). These factors can greatly influence
ability to do handwriting, but one can do the B-O test and leave them out,
and get an answer that fine motor is within normal range, so no OT needed.
Just a word to the wise, as I definitely think that you should formally
request an evaluation. Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-15 18:38:01 EST
From:  Willsons

I work in the same room with an OT so I was shocked by the treatment you were
given. I took your letter to school. Our OT said that some children do hold a
pencil in what appears to you to be an awkward grasp, but they are very
comfortable with it, and it causes no problems. She was struck however, by
your comment . . "My daughter is avoiding writing all the time and cries
everyday about her hand hurting." She said that should not be ignored.
The other posters have given you excellent advice/direction on how to get the
testing your daughter needs and deserves.

SUBJECT:  Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-15 21:53:29 EST
From:  CHSMom

My 10 year old (5th grade) son is severely ADHD, ODD, dyslexic, has been in
Resource since 2nd grade, has been receiving OT since January (supposed to
start last September, but that's another story) for a variety of issues but
mostly difficutly writing.  His dad talked to his teacher at the beginning of
the year re writing down his homework, and the teacher assured dad that he
would check it every day himself.  My son wrote something down, who knows
what it's supposed to say, my son can't remember and we can't read it.  But
the kicker is, the teacher drew an arrow to part and wrote "not what I put".
However, he did not put the correct information.  Thank goodness we have Back
to School Night this week.  Here we go again.
Deb

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-15 22:27:30 EST
From:  Ratatat

<His dad talked to his teacher at the beginning of the year re writing down
his homework, and the teacher assured dad that he would check it every day
himself.>

This is another one of the *moments* where you've got to be sure you're both
saying the same thing.  Dad is saying *write* down his homework and the
teacher is saying he'll *check* the assignment!

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-16 10:06:05 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello,    "  his is another one of the *moments* where you've got to be sure
you're both saying the same thing.  Dad is saying *write* down his homework
and the teacher is saying he'll *check* the assignment! "
             Great point here. It happens more then you think. How we
communicate what we want and what the teacher thinks we said. It helps to
give a complete reason as to why you request an accomedation, even a simple
one like homework check. If the teacher knew you couldn't read the assignment
and the child can't retrieve that information ( that's your childs
disabilities) and it makes homwork time longer and more frustrating and the
child can't learn the material if you don't know what the assignment is (
another words it's driving you batty), the teacher then has a clearer picture
of why it is important to fill in the homework for the child on his
assignment page.
       Been there done that too.
       Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-16 12:51:53 EST
From:  VassDi

Hi Everyone,I just wanted to update you all that helped me on what happened
at the meeting at school.They are going to test her next week but of course
they made me feel that the problem's were all in my head.The teacher came in
with a paper with my daughter's best handwriting on it plus two other papers
of other children.She said Myah doesn't have the worst handwriting in class
or the best but was right in the middle.I told her and the others that it
wasn't that her handwriting was horrible but that she says it hurts to
write.They turned around and said that she never says anything in school
about not liking to write.My daughter is very shy and quiet and would never
say anything to anyone but me or my husband.She is also on Imipramine for
depression and sleep problems so that makes them think that it's a
parent,child problem.The ESE liason even told me I should take some parenting
courses.I told her that it's not a behavioral problem and that I have taken
parenting classes in the past and don't feel that's the problem.It's her
hating to write and not being able to hold her pencil that's the problem but
they don't seem to get it.Anyway at least now they will be testing her.Well
see how that goes.Oh,one more thing,they tried to get me to sign a paper
releasing her records from her psychiatrist which I said I wouldn't until I
talk to them about it.I called the doctor's office and they said I shouldn't
give them because there was no reason they needed them.
Sorry to go on and on.They just get me going.Thanks for the advice.

SUBJECT:
Re:my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-16 16:33:59 EST
From:  Ratatat

<.The ESE liason even told me I should take some parenting courses.>

Unreal!

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-16 17:39:17 EST
From:  CHSMom

I agree.  Unfortunately, my son lives with his dad during the week, so I
don't know what was actually said.  I get info third hand, makes it difficult
to sort things out.  And dad is ADD-R, which doesn't help.

SUBJECT:  Re:my
daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-16 17:42:19 EST
From:  CHSMom

Unfortunately, that scenario is all too familiar.  Been there, done that,
more times than I'd like to count.  Good for you for sticking to your guns,
wish I had more often.  One thing I've learned from these boards is that it
doesn't matter what part of the country you live in, we all get the same
arguements from school personnel.

SUBJECT:  dysgraphia chat   Date:  97-09-17 15:27:39 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, just a reminder here those interrested in chating tonight is
Wednesday. Come to private room area of aol in town chat and type in
dysgraphia. See you there at 10pm EST.
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-17 22:22:53 EST
From:  PPear31329

I've been there,,,,, I personally told evey teacher at a team meeting that I
could not read what my son wrote in his agenda, and that it needed to be
checked and corrected by someone every day.
His S.N teacher sugested that his agenda be checked and corrected because of
his writing spelling and short term memory. It was even written in his I.E.P.
Guess what no one did it.  except when they had a complaint.  That seemed to
be the only time they used it.  One day I brought his agenda to a team
meeting to pass around so they would understand our delema. My son got a
detention for not having his agenda with him that day.(which he did not
serve).  This team was the worst I have ever worked with....Thank God this
year it is different...His resource room teacher checks his agenda every day,
goes over misspelled words in his agenda, and even helps them with difficult
homework assignments....Thank God.... There really are some wonderful
teachers out there, its just that the bad ones leave you gun shy.....Good
Luck and be persistant...

SUBJECT:  1st grader keyboarding    Date:  97-09-18 18:48:34 EST
From:  DaysOfPooh

We had an IEP for our 6 year old daughter yesterday and basically wrote up
modifications and accomadations until the comprehensive testing to determine
spec.ed placement eligibility other than for speech was done . One concern
that the school psych had was that by the middle to end of the year , the
kids will be doing more and more writing , she suggested that while the other
kids are writing , our daughter be allowed to use the computer in the room to
do her writing , we agreed and its now on the 504 . Does anybody know of any
good computer programs that would be appropriate and helpful in aiding our
daughter to use the keyboard better ?

Thanks
Nancy

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-20 08:23:45 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Oh this one is familar....   I asked the teachers if they could record the
assignments on our Homework hote line and then at least I would be able to
check... and they said...nope.  They said they will sign off in my sons
assignment book..but he has to remember to bring it to them (my son has
trouble with active working memory.add..graphomotor problem and the like..and
then well hes 13..which Im sure should have its own catch phrase)  They say
he needs to learn responsibility..I agree..I wonder what magic words I'll
come up with that will get them to help me teach it to him.. :-)

...boy and this is so small in the scheme of things...but so "splinter under
my skin" like.

SUBJECT:  Re:my daughter's handwriting   Date:  97-09-20 08:26:50 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Check out Mel Levines book  "Educational Care" It will give you a real
overview of ALL the things that go into handwriting. If your school is like
our school..they don't have a clue...
Hang in there..
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-20 09:12:35 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, Of coarse they can say no to recording the homework on the homework
line you don't have it as an intervention on his IEP OR 504 plan.
        Some teachers will only do what the law tells them too written a
special education plan. GET IT PUT IN THE PLAN.
        I have some of the same issues as your son. I'm an adult, I forget
things all the time am I irresponsible, no, I have a disability that I must
deal with everyday. It is frustrating but I've learned to  cope. It will
improve as he gets older, but not at 13. <G>
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-20 13:23:14 EST
From:  CHSMom

<<They said they will sign off in my sons assignment book..but he has to
remember to bring it to them (my son has trouble with active working
memory.add..graphomotor problem and the like..and then well hes 13..which Im
sure should have its own catch phrase)  They say he needs to learn
responsibility..>>

I can't help but wonder how they all come up with the exact same lines.  My
son is 15, we have been fighting this fight since middle school, he is
classified SED.  I told them if he could remember to bring his book to the
teacher I would be thrilled - he would most likely no longer be ADHD, TS,
OCD, etc. etc.  In the mean time, saying he has to be *responsible* was the
same as telling a blind student she had to be responsible for reading a book
in print.  He will *never* be able to do what they are demanding he do any
more than the blind student will be able to read the book.  They lookd at me
with blank stares.  But the week before school started, I had a 2 1/2 hour
IEP (they had been 15-30 minutes), with most of his teachers in attendance.
The other thing I did was have him assessed for mental health services, he
qualified, so he will be getting counseling on site to deal with his
frustrations about school.

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-21 18:02:16 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Barb I take heart when I read that at your school district they pay attention
to the law.... I could have it written in thier blood and they wouldnt care..
Im not kidding.  His IEP means nothing...nada...zip....   Yes we have been to
hearing...yes the school district says they should provide the services on
his IEP..yes they admit they havent...  on tape..    I don't know how things
are in the rest of the country but around here IDEA is just a bunch of
letters (not even creative thought)
...am I bitter...  mmmmmm....
Well the good news is that my son has good teachers this year....sometimes
that can get us past some of the hurdles to his education...

...and we wrote a new IEP...
..and our family is endowed with a great sense of humor...
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-21 19:19:41 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

<Yes we have been to hearing...yes the school district says they should
provide the services on his IEP..yes they admit they havent...  on tape.. >


     Yes my district is doing a good job now, but not always in the past. I
too have been there with fighting to get the most basic accomedations and my
memory of those times is not pleasant.

    I learned from those difficult years. That is how to present what I want.
What my childrens rights are. How to attend to the areas the school was not
addressing.

   The Law provides avenues that I don't know if you have accessed. If the
school flately refused to follow the IEP or even an individual teacher I
would contact the federal office of special education in Washington D.C. and
a the Office of Civil Rights and let them hear the tape and file a formal
complaint. No one is going to implement and follow through if you don't exert
your rights.

    I am reasonable in my requests for accomedations through the school and I
expect the school to follow the IEP or 504 plan as it is written. I know at
times everyone gets out of kilter (Christmass is a hard time of year)  and
the plan isn't consistantly followed at times. I can live with that, but the
schools must realise that I expect the majority of the school year for the
plan to be followedl

   I am glad you have supportive teachers this year, just keep in mind your
not there to be liked, if you must get tuff then do so They have a job that
has requirments that are federally mandated by law. The school and teachers
must follow those laws. My job is no different, I am a nurse. The laws are as
strigent to follow as theirs are, and if I don't follow them I am
accountable. If their is an area that I failed to meet the standards of my
pratice toward  my clients,  the patient has the right to file a complaint
against me. I can be fired and lose my lisence to work and be sued
personally. My name would be published by our licensing agency. So I don't
think it is so wrong of parents to speak out and take action for their
childrens rights.

Take Care Barb

Take Care Barb



SUBJECT:  Re:1st grader keyboarding    Date:  97-09-22 11:09:29 EST
From:  KevisB

I hope that you also got a modification that she will not be required to do
as much writing, as I have a hard time imagining a 1st grader learning to
type well enough to keep up with her peers handwriting.

But I suggest instead of computer games, you just let her type using a
program that allows her to write stories, such as Amazing Writing Machine or
Ultrawriter. Let the school actually teach her keyboarding using an
appropriate one on one instruction method. The games that teach typing are
mostly very frustrating, at least they were for my dysgraphic son. They were
too visually oriented.

Also, what has been done about math? That involves writing too.

Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-22 18:10:53 EST
From:  LMCGZ


Barb...as always thank you.

We got an alpha prosmart loaner today.. (they will let you try one to
see..for 10 days)   Its very cool. My son took right to it.  I was surprised
to see it doesnt have a spell check...  from the literture I see the alpha
2000 does...  Has anyone tried that one ???  Trying to make a decision here
pretty fast...
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-23 00:10:23 EST
From:  Lynnebl

<Yes we have been to hearing...yes the school district says they should
provide the services on his IEP..yes they admit they havent...  on tape.. >

The biggest shock I had was to find out that after winning a Hearing, the
parent must go back into an IEP meeting where the Hearing decisions may or
may not be followed by the school.  For us, it took 4 more IEP meetings and
additional help from the attorney to make the victory a reality for my son.
Persistancy is the key.  Hang in there and expect that the IEP will be
followed as closely as humanly possible.  Hang in there.   Lynne

SUBJECT:
Occupational Threapy   Date:  97-09-23 17:42:06 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

     We had a very confusing call from the Occupational Threapist today. They
wanted a Doctors written prescription for our son to be tutored in typing.
She says that New York State requires there be a Doctor's request be on file
for all students to receive OT. The threapist suggested I get my son's
pediatrician to give the reason why we wanted him to have OT.
     The pediatrician had nothing to do with his LD evaluation. We have never
heard of this requirement. He has a an evaluation from an Education
Psychologist that states he has Dysgraphia. I would think that the evaluation
would serve as a perscription to warrent the need for typing lessons. OT was
put on his IEP before school started this year.
     This is puzzling. I asked the Threapist to go through Special Committee
and have them formally make this request to me in writing.
      If anyone can shed some light on this I would like to hear from them.
Thanks,  Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:Occupational Threapy   Date:  97-09-23 20:55:18 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:
         < She says that New York State requires there be a Doctor's request
be on file for all students to receive OT.>

I would call up your states special education office and ask them if there is
such a law and to send you a copy, also ask ( if there is a law) how is it
implemented when a child has an IEP that already has OT listed as an
accomedation.

I don't take anyone's word unless I have seen the law itself.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Occupational Threapy   Date:  97-09-26 18:21:23 EST
From:  LMCGZ

I live in NY state and the school disticts doctor did have to sign off in
order for him to recieve services...I believe they used a stamp of his
signature

SUBJECT:  Hope via alphasmart   Date:  97-09-26 18:25:29 EST
From:  LMCGZ

I can not believe what this little machiene has done for my sons life in four
days. I want to thank Barb and all the parents that left messages about it.
We have a loaner and I can not believe it. My sons science teacher said it
was like a light went on for my son. He  got it out of the box and took right
to it. Amazing.  So there is something to this technical assistance thing
after all.. :-)
Amazing.
Lorraine..I will never doubt parents on here again... :-)

SUBJECT:  Re: 1st grade
keyboarding   Date:  97-09-26 18:45:00 EST
From:  JKaac

As a school based OT, I would be hesitant to recommend formal keyboarding
instruction for a six year old child.  This is the age when they are learning
letter formation, how to use the lines of the paper, left to right
orientation, how to organize the paper, etc.  Their hands are too small to
touch type like an adult and they do not have the finger isolation to use all
fingers for typing.  Instead, I would teach the right hand for the right side
of the keyboard and the left hand for the left side.  Expose her to the use
of the computer at home - let her become familiar with the keyboard at home.


SUBJECT:  Voice recognition software   Date:  97-09-26 18:49:51 EST
From:  JKaac

I'm seeing many posts for the AlphaSmart Pro and the Dream Writer, but are
you aware of voice recognition software that is even more affordable?  I
recommend it for you to try at home.  ViaVoice is only $79.00 at CompUsa!!!!!
This is a "naturally speaking" voice recognition program that has its own
word processing program or that will work with Microsoft Word.  Try it.  It
also has a 30 day money back guarantee.  And, No, I don't work for the
company.
  I'm just an OT who wants to help students overcome whatever obstacles
prevent them from becoming successful learners.

SUBJECT:  Re:Occupational Threapy   Date:  97-09-27 00:53:27 EST
From:  CHSMom

School district doctor?  never heard of that.

SUBJECT:  Re:Hope via alphasmart   Date:  97-09-27 00:55:12 EST
From:  CHSMom

Lorraine - so glad to hear the good news!!  My son had the same experience.
Made the difference between believing in himself and feeling the the deck was
stacked against him.  Debbie

SUBJECT:  RE: Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-27 06:50:24 EST
From:  JRZYLILY

Just found this message board.  Wish I knew it existed over three years ago
when all our problems came to a head with our son, then 16, who just could
not seem to excell in school.  Branded as lazy, he was also tested and found
gifted, but never got much more than Cs or Ds in class.  The combination of
being bored to tears, a teenager, rugged individualist, and an inability to
write anything which could be read by the teachers left us all frustrated and
angry.  The school system basically refused to recognize dysgraphia as a
disability, said he didn't qualify for any special programming, etc. because
the system handles children at the lower functioning end of the spectrumf
ONLY.  This, from the great state of Maryland, county of Harford.
Consequently, we sought help at the community college level, and two long
years later, he finally got his diploma, although when you move from high
school to college, you lose any right to information because they deal with
the student (adult) only and the counselors cannot (or say they cannot) share
any information with you.  This young man, now 20, is not having an easy time
of it.  I am so angry at the school system for refusing to look at him as an
individual, with a problem other than laziness, when he was in middle school,
where the problem first became apparent, and they knew that he was gifted in
other ways, but lacked the interest to assume responsibility for discovering
just what the problem was.  I would need a calculator to count the number of
times I've seen "not functioning uup to potential"  or "does not turn in
written assignments" on progress reports.  And, even though I belong to the
medical profession, have been a nurse for nearly 30 years now, I was ignorant
of dysgraphia.  We had to have Bob evaluated ourselves, were treated with
disrespect by the school officials when we presented our report and diagnosis
as they literally shrugged off the information.  As a mother, I feel
tremendous guilt that I have not done a good job of fighting for my child
when I knew he needed help, but I was also grievously misguided by the
educational heirarchy.  And probably most importantly, I will be forever
angry that not one teacher in 6 years was interested enough in this bright,
personable young man to seek out answers to the question "Why is Bobby
failing?"   Thanks so much for allowing me to vent this way.  It's helped a
bit.
                                             Nancy

SUBJECT:  Re:RE: Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-27 10:05:42 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

<   This young man, now 20, is not having an easy time of it.  I am so angry
at the school system for refusing to look at him as an individual, with a
problem other than laziness, when he was in middle school,>

   Well your post brings back memories. My oldest child wasn't diagnosed
until 11th grade with dysgraphia. Yes, I too live in the Maryland area ( have
transported my kids to soccor games up your way for years :) ). It just shows
me that schools don't really understand or want to recognize dysgrpahia as a
disability they want to address and won't unless the parents know what their
childs problem is and knows their rights under the law.

     Please tell your son to just keep plugging away. My oldest is back now
in her secound year of college. The biggest difference from her perspective
is knowing about her disability. Percerverince is the name of the game.
Please tell your son to just keep trying, it will pay off in the end. Make
sure he is allowed to tape all his classes. Tell him to concentrate on taking
notes, they don't have to be readable to anyone else but him ( no one grades
notes in college, thank goodness). My understanding is the child must
advocate for himeself, but that doesn't perclude him using an adovcate at the
college level in handling the college special education department ( makes
you wonder doesn't it a child hardly ever advocates for themsleves in high
school and bingo in college they have to handle a system that the parents
find difficult). Does you son know his right?. Start teaching him now.

   Now I have a question where is it written in federal law that a child has
to adovcate for themselves in college? Does that mean the parent can't act as
an advocate? Where is it written?I don't mean the child shouldn't get the
ball rolling and act as the primary advocate for themselves, but why can't
the parent be an adjunct to the process. I plan to do this, so I may as well
start looking at those issues now. I want my kids to learn how to help
themselves, but first they must be able to see how that process is
accomplished.

   Tell him to keep a sence of humor. There are more kids out there dealing
with the same issues in college. Has he tried any self pacing coarses. We
found in college they work well for the dysgraphic student, they require very
little writiing.

Take Care Barb


SUBJECT:  Re:RE: Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-29 09:46:22 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, how about another chat this Wednesday in private room, dysgraphia. At
10 pm EST. Hope we can chat then.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:RE: Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-29 18:44:00 EST
From:  Lynnebl

Thanks Barb for reminding us that the dysgraphic student can also get
accommodations in college.  I know someone that was tested and identified
dysgraphic as an adult.  She is finding the college's center for student's
with disabilities to be much more enlightened and helpful than our public
schools.

Is the problem in public schools a lack of education among our educators at
that level?

SUBJECT:  Re: 1st grade keyboarding   Date:  97-09-29 18:57:27 EST
From:  DaysOfPooh

Thankyou for the suggestions . Actually , a program we bought our daughter
called " Read , Write and Type " by The Learning Company addresses some of
the concerns you expressed . It is a game type program that also teaches
keyboarding , left hand for left side of keyboard and right for right . It
also makes adaptations for a smaller childs fingers . We have had a hard time
getting our daughter to NOT want to play it so much , matter of fact we have
had to limit her time on this program BUT , she has mastered 8 letter
positions . Talking to her OT , it appears this program may have other
benefits for our daughter as she also has a severe proprioceptive sensory
impairment and working on isolated finger movements is good . Our daughter
knows how to write all the letters ( though many backwards , she is dyslexic
) her biggest problem is her writing speed , legibility , and the fact that
she becomes physically sore while writing due to her extremely rigid upper
body posture during writing . We are hoping that through OT she can work
through some of these things and feel more comfortable , physically at least
with writing but we did feel it was necessary to have a safeguard on a 504 in
the event that she needs to keyboard to accomplish her work , this is looked
at by us as a last resort and , even if writing does become more comfortable
, keyboarding is a great skill and as long as shes enjoying it and being
successful , it has become something that makes her feel positive about
herself .

Nancy

SUBJECT:  Re:RE: Laugh or Cry?   Date:  97-09-29 21:44:30 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<
< Is the problem in public schools a lack of education among our educators at
that level?>

   I think they really worry at the number of children who may need access to
services and technology to help them in the younger grades. Funding is always
and issue and I do think that there are the hidden costs we don't see.
Teachers need more training to deal with these children.

  Colleges only have to give intervenitons like provding a note taker or a
computer or allowing more time for tests to be given in. They don't have to
have a resouce room to teach you to read or write. The college may send you
to a class to update your math skills or language skills, but you pay for it
not the school. So colleges can do a better job becuase it costs them less in
money.
  I heard a wise women who lectured at the college I went to. She said in a
bussiness if you want to know how to get ahead to follow the money. Who
controls it and where it is spent, that  is where the power is to finding out
how any system works and how you use any system to your benefit. I believe
it.  So in special education who wants to find more work when it costs the
system money that is not there or that is slated for other uses.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Alphasmart   Date:  97-09-30 15:23:41 EST
From:  Suglum


Can someone tell me the difference between Alphasmart & a PC and how it helps
with writing difficulites?  I've read some things here about Alphasmart and
checked our their web site but I can't figure out how it differs from a
computer.  I am interested because my 7 yos has difficulty writing (in the
process of being evaluated for dysgraphia).

Thanks.

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-09-30 22:45:50 EST
From:  CHSMom

An AlphaSmart is basically a word processor.  It is just a keyboard with
files that allow the student to store what they have typed.  My son is in
10th grade, so he has a file for every class, instead of a folder.It helps
with writing difficulties because it eliminates the need to write - so fine
motor/graphomotor problems are no longer an issue, and the student doesn't
have to think about writing and how to form the letters.  A friend told me
that the AlphaSmart Pro was not appropriate for her son because it only shows
3 lines at a time, and he neede to see more info at a time, such as on a
laptop screen.  But it is worth trying, especially if you can get it free
from the school, like we did.  Hope this helps

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-10-01 14:35:34 EST
From:  KevisB

Also, whether you buy it yourself or get the school to provide it, it costs
so much less than a computer, that it is a feasible alternative when a
computer, especially a laptop, would not be. My mother liked my son's
AlphaSmart so much when she tried it that she is going to buy one to take on
airplanes and use at meetings since it weighs less than two pounds and runs
on 2 AA batteries. Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-10-02 00:50:18 EST
From:  CHSMom

Another interesting plus:  my son who has the AlphaSmart Pro is in 10th grade
and has always felt less of himself because most of his teammates are in AP
classes.  When he showed up the first day of school with the alphasmart pro,
they were very impressed, asked him what it was, why he had it, etc.  He
explained it was because of his learning disabilities, and they became very
jealous and wanted to know how they could become ld so they could have one!
Made my son feel very good.  Just goes to show, one never knows how kids are
going to react.

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-10-03 18:41:13 EST
From:  LMCGZ

My sons spanish teacher summed up the difference between the alphasmart and a
pc that I hadnt thought of...  because it lays flat it doesnt stand out so
much... as he put it.."T. doesnt look like hes on a space station"  and I
think a lap top in our school right now would stand out like crazy..  my boy
doesnt need any help standing out... :-)
Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-10-03 18:43:21 EST
From:  LMCGZ

ohhh..and my 13 yr old son came home and said girls talked to him because of
the alphsmart...  and it makes his letters ledgible...  all that for under
$300.00
Imagine.

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-10-04 00:31:47 EST
From:  CHSMom

Isn't it amazing how one little accomodation can make such a big difference
in so many areas?

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-10-05 10:19:36 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, just a small note here did you know that if your school uses mac
computers and your child uses a pc at home the alphasmart can be used as
medium to transfer there keyboading from the mac to the alpha then to the Pc
at home and back again.
         It requires a program from the aplhasmart people. You ask why this
is importat. Well this week we ran into the problem of the alpha. not working
well the company is great they will fix it as soon as possible, but that
takes a week. How does my child keep up durring that week. Why using the mac
at school, but I need a way to transfer that information back when the alpha
returns,hence the program to allow transfering information into the alpha
fromthe computer.
        I think this will have other applicatons also. why not eleminate
printing out so much work that has the potential for getting lost. We now
have the potential to do the work on the computer at school /and at home/
using the alphasamrt to transfrer the information to the computer at school
and from there have it put on a disk. NO LOST papers.

Just another twist on using technology to our kids advantage.
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-07 14:43:45 EST
From:  Mona Bikes

I'm a mom and my problem sounds similar to yours.  My son will be 9 next
month and is in third grade.  By the end of first grade it was apparent his
illegible handwriting was not improving.  He began O.T. which we have been
paying for on our own since he is not "classifiable".  The psychologist has
described him as gifted with a learning disability.  He scored in the 99th
percentile and above in so many areas of a standardized test--vocablulary,
reading comp. and math included.  His downfall is in writing and organizing
his thoughts on paper so that they make sense.  He can spell well when given
a list of words, but when he has to write a story he makes a lot of spelling
errors.  Now he is in private school where they can accelerate him in math.
Language arts is an issue--so far he has not been placed in the accelerated
Language Arts group and I imagine it's becuase of his writing problems.
Meanwhile the spelling words and reading they get is not advanced enough.
It's a big problem and I know what you're going through.  I'm in NJ

SUBJECT:
Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-08 08:21:09 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

<   Language arts is an issue--so far he has not been placed in the
accelerated Language Arts group and I imagine it's becuase of his writing
problems.  Meanwhile the spelling words and reading they get is not advanced
enough.  It's a big problem and I know what you're going through.  I'm in NJ>

     Have you concidered a alphasmart Pro or a dream writer to help your
child with his writng problems at school. Will the school allow that type of
accomedation? Is it a religous school or a private school without religous
base. Schools that are private are still required by federal law to
accomedate a disability, unless that school has a religous affiliation.
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-09 09:43:47 EST
From:  TPZT1996

My son is 8 and in 3rd grade.  He has always made A's and B's in school.  He
has always seemed to be really smart, but his handwriting has always been
just awful.  He has a terrible time with spelling.  We help him study the
list every week, and usually makes good grades. However, if the teacher has
them use the words in sentences or something like that, he spells them all
wrong.  We had him tutored between first and second grade for handwriting and
reading.  His tutor told us that he may have a problem with written
expression, but that it really wouldn't show up until third or fourth grade.
Well, now here we are in third grade, and at midterm, he has 3 F's and a D.
His best grade is a B in spelling.  I think that is because we help him study
those.  He is so discouraged.  My dh and I went to the school this a.m.  They
are discouraging testing.  Does anyone else have the same problem?  Does it
sound like a written expression problem?  Luckily for us, we have a relative
who has a masters in learning disabilities, and she will help us fight the
district if we have to.  She doesn't live close by and to discuss his
problems with him means a ton of long distance.  She thinks it is written
expression also.  Any stories like his?  I would like to have them.  I am
arming myself for a battle with our school.  Thanks Pam

SUBJECT:  Re:writing
difficulties   Date:  97-10-09 10:15:27 EST
From:  CHSMom

<<They are discouraging testing.>>

of course they are.  But if you put yur request for testing in writing they
*must* do a complete assessment, including an occupational therapy
evaluation, language evaluation, written expression evaluation, if you want
these.

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-09 11:42:35 EST
From:  KevisB

<< His tutor told us that he may have a problem with written expression, but
that it really wouldn't show up until third or fourth grade.  Well, now here
we are in third grade, and at midterm, he has 3 F's and a D.>>
Yes, yes, many of us have stories just like this. Don't delay in getting him
testing; his self esteem is too important. Request it in writing--then they
have to test. Much of school knowledge is expressed in writing in these
primary grades so an LD in written expression impacts everything! Good luck!
Kevis :)

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-09 13:03:45 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, start doing a search on dysgraphia and other disabilities related to
written expression. Yes third grade is the breaker year. That's when my three
children had their problems bob up.
         Pay atteniton to the previous posts / their;s was good advice. You
need to know what the educational laws are and how your state interputs those
laws.
         Start here on line, read the message boards all of them, you will
get bits and pieces as you go along. Write on the boads and ask questions,
that helps too.
         Go to the forum area down load the educational laws/ know them. Look
up different types of LD's see if you think they apply to your child, it will
help you think about area's that may be of concern for your child.
ldonline.org is one site go there to the glossary / look at the indepth area/
read the laws there/ this www site is a good starting point.
          Don't get discouraged you are at the begining of a long process. If
you read and learn you will be able to help your child as he progesses
through school.
          My last piece of advice is get a note book and start to document
all correspondence/ phone calls to school. Put all requests to the school in
writing you may think this is silly , but it may save you some heart ache
down the road/ The sucessfull parents do this.
         Follow the advice about the testing/ request it in writing you must
do this for the school to actually to comply and test your child for a
learning problem/ The school then has at the most 30 days to hold a team
meeting with you in attendence to discuss the need for testing. They must
test if you ask them too!
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-09 23:08:45 EST
From:  SGorby

I agree that the problem starts to show up in third grade.  That is when my
son first found himself unable to keep up with the rest of his class in
written work.  In fourth grade it only got worse with the increase in written
work.  He is now in fifth grade and is spending all his waking hours trying
to keep up with his school work.  He is very bright and is in the gifted
program at school but his grades are slipping because he can't keep up with
the writen assignments.  The bad thing is that hand writing takes so much
concentration for him that he doesn't learn a thing while he is writing
because he puts so much effort into writing that he has no comprehension of
what he is writing.  He always gets A's in handwriting and teachers have even
commented on what beautiful handwriting he has.   The problem is that is
takes a tremendous amount of effort and time for him to produce it.  His
teachers feel that he is just "dawdling" and needs to "get on the ball".  For
a while I even went along with this.  This year, however, I have been telling
my husband, "He just can't do it.  He is incapable of writing any faster.  If
he could get the work done he would. What child would put their self through
this if they could get out of it?"
For the past week I have been trying to come up with some possible idea as to
what the problem could be.  (I feel like I need to have the solution to a
problem ready when I talk to school officials if I expect anything to be
done:)  Today I decided to poke around on AOL to see if I could come up with
something.  Well, I think I found something.  Tomorrow I go to the school to
request some more testing for my son.  Thanks

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-10 08:04:24 EST
From:  Mars000210

Helo, you wrote'

<  He always gets A's in handwriting and teachers have even commented on what
beautiful handwriting he has.   The problem is that is takes a tremendous
amount of effort and time for him to produce it.  His teachers feel that he
is just "dawdling" and needs to "get on the ball".  For a while I even went
along with this>


Yup, all kids don't have slopy illegibale handwriting. My oldest the first to
be diagnosed with dysgraphia has beatifull handwriting / testing showed she
didn't write any faster then a third grader  and that was long ago/ she was
in 11th grade before we had a clue. It is easier if they are the traditonal
child with awfull handwritng at least there is a visable clue.

I have a question for you. My oldest went to catholic shcool that stress very
strict handwriting skills. I thought this was a dule edged sword for her/ as
she had the dysgraphia then, but the process taught her to write neatly but
at the expence of speed. So my question is what about rememdation for
handwriting/ is it a good thing or bad? I see that it can have postive
effects as it helps the child recognize letters and legable notes are a plus,
but after 3rd or 4th grade is remedation for handwriting just something that
others think is important, but is a deficet for the dysgraphic child.

Should they have keyboading instead at that age?

Oh just to let you know on www ldonline.org go to the indepth area and click
on technology there is a great article by Richard Wanderman, he is dysgraphic
and dyslexic. It is worth reading.
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-10 11:03:45 EST
From:  TPZT1996

Thank You Thank You Thank you!  The information I am receiving here is
priceless.  I did make the request for a formal evaluation in writing to the
school, and they have set up a team meeting with the school counselor, the
reading specialist, his K-3 teachers, and the speech therapist (because she
is my friend and his tutor).  The meeting is to be held on Monday.  The
principal told me that "if you are really going to push this thing, then we
have no choice but to test.  They probably won't do anything but make Zac
feel like he is different from the other kids, and for no reason"  At first I
started slipping and felt that maybe she was right, but then I realized that
he must feel much worse than that after being an A student, and all of a
sudden dropping to F's and D's.  We spoke with him about it, and he just
wants to know if there is something wrong with him. We explained to him that
kids will ask questions, and they may say things to him.  He just said "Mom,
it doesn't matter.  I just want to be smart again"  It just broke my heart.
I am having the hardest time dealing with his self esteem. But what if they
don't find anything wrong with him?  I will be really happy, but then what do
we do?  Does that mean that he really isn't smart?  Is he lazy?  I hate to
ask these things about my own child, but can't help but think that if he is
really just not trying, how will we fix it then?  The school wants to try
strategies in the classroom first.  I said that was okay, but would not allow
them to just make a temporary fix to a long term problem.  Is this acceptable
for them to do this?  How long should I give them?  Thanks for letting me
ramble on and on.  You are the best people.  I feel like I finally have a
support group.  Pam

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-10 15:43:41 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

<   The school wants to try strategies in the classroom first.  I said that
was okay, but would not allow them to just make a temporary fix to a long
term problem.  Is this acceptable for them to do this?>

Pam by law they are suppose to make accomedations even without testing or
indentification of a learning disability. That is so children who are not LD
have a fair deal also in school and can get accomedations that will help them
in school.
  Your secound question is should you just let them accomedate without a plan
sure, but make them do the testing, be sure the testing includes looking for
problems with written expression<-----school term here (dysgraphia)<----
medical termenology here as well as other LD's that may be causing a problem
for your child. Then when and If he is diagnosed with an LD get all the
interventions and accomedations in wiritng in an IEP or 504 plan which ever
your school uses. That way every teacher has to use the same accomedations.
Don't let the school talk you out of using a formal plan if your child
quiafies.

Next make sure now that you have in your hands and understand your STATES
quiafying criteria for an LD, the point spred on the tests will either allow
him to quiafy or not, but the only way you will know is if you have and
understand the criteria. You need to start doing some homework.
Many states use different quiafying criteria, some states you must be so many
diviation points below grade level on the test scores ( that does not refer
to the grades or level he is doing in his actual school work in the class
room), some states also allow the child to quialfy if his potential (IQ) to
learn is greater then his actual proformance skills ( your child has the
potential to be a genous but is reading on grade level), and other states
will let your child quialfy under a 504 if the child does not meet the
testing criteria ( and some states allow all three)  So you can see you must
know all this to know if your child will quialfy to be serviced with a formal
plan.

Don't get discouraged it is easy to learn just takes a little time and being
prepared is so much easier then back tracking later.

Keep good records of all conversations, tape your IEP (team) meetings.
Ask questions on line and ask questions at your state level ( advocacy and
protections agency /may also be called special education department) usually
located at the governors office.
Take Care Barb



SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-10 15:51:24 EST
From:  LMCGZ

I was surprised when I brought my son to a tutor (orton gillingham) and they
suggested working on hand writing... making the sound of the letters and
connecting that to the kinestic action of handwriting...   Sometimes I want
to go screaming into the night...   I explained he had two years of OT and
that this was the best he could produce..   but whos to say they arent right?
Maybe they know something the OT didn't...   Im so confused.  The more I read
the more I learn the more I learn the more confused I get.  Maybe he should
have been raised by wolves.  :-)

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-10 15:56:16 EST
From:  LMCGZ

You can request outside evaluation...(your school district should be able to
provide you with a list)  since they seem to be twiddling around.  They can
tell you no and you can take them to hearing..or they can pay for it...
(which will cost about the same as going to hearing) Find out the regulations
in your state (law is the same..regs are different state to state).

SUBJECT:
Re:Dyslexia   Date:  97-10-10 19:41:25 EST
From:  Libra25404

 I am a first year special Ed teacher working in a school for dyslexic
children.  I am struggling minute by minute, college didn't prepare me for
this!!!!  Any words of wisdom would be appreciated on dyslexia, behaviors
associated with dyslexia, etc.

SUBJECT:  Re:Dyslexia   Date:  97-10-11 05:59:13 EST
From:  Limkefam

As the parent of a dyslexic child my advise is to get many of the wonderful
books on the subject and read as much as you can.  One that I am enjoying at
the moment is "Cognitive Strategy Instruction that really improves children's
academic performance", By Michael Pressley and Vera Woloshyn.  The list of
refrences at the end of each chapter is impressive.  This book addresses
decoding, comprehension, vocabulary, spelling, writing, math, science,
learning facts, etc.  It tells of much of the research in each of these areas
and what has been found to help. This book is only one of the Cognitive
Strategy Training Series.  Then try to get a great deal of inside information
about how the methods of instruction are actually presented.   I spent many,
many hours observing my daughter receiving intensive phonemic awareness
training and math instruction this past summer.  This was invaluable to me in
my understanding not only of her specific difficulties but also on how to
make learning and making mistakes "safe" for her.  I NEVER, ever say that
horrible word "Remember?" (Like, "We already went over that, Remember?"etc.)
You could see her finally starting to relax and stop worrying when she made a
mistake.  Eventually she could actually see her error rather than resort to
using her old method of frantically guessing at the right answer just so
maybe she could keep whatever was wrong with her hidden for one more day.
These kids need a strong support system to be successful. I  also observed
many other students and was impressed by the differences in need based on
each individuals disability and age.  Absolutely no two were alike and all
needed to be kept on task by using many different approaches.  The internet
is wonderful for information.  I am on several lists for special education
and receive interesting information.  One young man posted that it was only
after he began work on a doctoral program that he was introduced to
information about the role of phonological processing in reading disorders.
I have to admit that this shocked me!!!!   Now I have to wonder what is being
taught to those entering the field of Special Education.  This is one of the
frustrations of parents.  Many times I just want to hash over some of the
thoughts I have, not with the idea that this is what my child needs, just
because I find the information and field so incredibly interesting.    Please
keep educating yourself.....there is so much information available and these
kids need you.

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-11 07:03:49 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote,

<I was surprised when I brought my son to a tutor (orton gillingham) and they
suggested working on hand writing... making the sound of the letters and
connecting that to the kinestic action of handwriting...>

I think there are good reasons for this. It just isn't having them make well
formed letters that other can read. It is imprinting the letters into the
long term memory so to speak, the brain needs to recognize the letters and
without the child having to think is this capital Q or a small q. They want
to make the letters automatcly come to the child and the best way is through
multile sensory approach. When a teacher is following a certain method of
instruction such as the Orton method they aren't going to delete steps in the
progam.

My question for you is why they are doing the letters with your child. Find
out is it a form of imprinting letter recognition or is it remedation of the
handwriting (is it just to make it legible)? You will then be better informed
if this is valid skill that is needed in his instruction. Call the Orton
people ask them the same quetions is this nessesary, what the OT said, how
the Orton method will help your child in this area. Make sure you try and
understand the reason why and make your best choice on the information you
have gathered. Tell them what you have learned about remedatoin of
handwriting for children who are dysgraphic. When your not sure ask more
questions.

It is so hard to make the right choices. There are so many choices to make it
hard. I have always gone with if my child didn't mind doing it ( no stress)
then what could it hurt, but if my child hated it and said I do it better my
way. I listened to my kid. Has worked for me. I may have missed stratagies
that might have helped my child by doing this, but I have pretty happy
children.

Take Care Barb




SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-11 13:38:58 EST
From:  Willsons

You said:  We spoke with him about it, and he just wants to know if there is
something wrong with him. We explained to him that kids will ask questions,
and they may say things to him.  He just said "Mom, it doesn't matter.  I
just want to be smart again"
I don't think a child who was just being lazy would risk being found out. I
think your child is sincerely struggling and eager to have some help.
You said: The school wants to try strategies in the classroom first.
At the risk of alienating fellow teachers, I must tell you, my experience has
been that this is usually just given lip-service. The teachers may sincerely
want to be accomodating, but they have so many responsibilites and so little
time. In my opinion, get the testing and the individual help you son appears
to need. He deserves it.
Why was the OT left out of the meeting? I think she is your key person in
this situation (for assessing fine-motor skills).

SUBJECT:  Re:writing
difficulties   Date:  97-10-13 07:46:25 EST
From:  LMCGZ

Ok second session at tutors....
He taught my son to do the entire alphabet without looking on the keyboard.
He is using the Diana King method.  It is so cool.  I couldn't believe it.

..so if this Tutor says lets try handwriting or standing on your head I think
my son will be all for it...

and then the ultimate question...  why can't the school district do this for
my son???? Wouldnt all kids benifit from learning to keyboard quickly???  Why
isn't anyone doing the research at my district to find this stuff out???  How
can we be more proactive in getting these methods to the schools???

Lorraine

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-13 09:00:07 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

< why can't the school district do this for my son???? Wouldnt all kids
benifit from learning to keyboard quickly??? >

Good question. Only can guess, no program in force, so they would have to
create program, what would the child miss if they took the time to teach this
durring the school day. Where is the money comming from to obtain nesseary
equipment. School knows that child will have access to these intervetnions in
upper grades where program and equipment and personal already exist, so chose
to put off intervention until your child reaches those grades were the access
doesn't cost the school more time/money and personel. So few kids indenfied
that need this intervention. No skilled person availible to teach this
intervention. School not knowlegable enough about the difficulty encountered
by child. School subscribe to different approach to remediate child. The list
goes on.
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:writing difficulties   Date:  97-10-13 10:12:21 EST
From:  TPZT1996

Well, this afternoon I begin my long process with our school.  Wish me luck.
Pam

SUBJECT:  Typing in 5th grade   Date:  97-10-13 18:18:43 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

We know that those with dysgraphia should learn to type. Most schools don't
teach typing until the 7th grade. By then they are probably so overwhelmed
with all the other new classes it might be dofficult for a LD student to also
learn to type.

We insisted typing Occupational Threapy be put into our son's IEP and it was
over the summer. However the occupational threapist dragged her heels in
evaluating him and has just this past week schedulaed OT for our son.

He is now the only elementary student in the school district being taught
typing. He will receive two 30 minute private sessions a week with the OT.
She will use the Mavis Beacon typing program.

One thing that seems curious is that they are not doing this because they
think he should have typing, or that they have read the books on Overcoming
Dysgraphia, but because  I have demanded that he be taught. Again, where are
the resources and experts in the field of accommodation for learning disabled
students that they should have gone to? I would feel more comfortable if they
relied on others, more experienced, in this field than I am. I doubt whether
they have researched any of my recommendations.

We are looking forward to seeing his typing progress. I will post his
progress here and perhaps you will see if typing is a good idea or not for a
10 year old.       Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:Typing in 5th grade   Date:  97-10-13 21:01:28 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

< Again, where are the resources and experts in the field of accommodation
for learning disabled students that they should have gone to? I would feel
more comfortable if they relied on others, more experienced,>

I think that schools don't have a clue as to dysgraphia, even the terminology
written expression disorder covers such a wide aray of disabilities related
to writing problems that there is a limited understanding of the difficulty
these children experience.

Add in the differing opinions byf the professionals as how to remediate
problems with written expression how do we expect the schools to handle it
well. In my childrens high school there are two indentified my child and one
other.
In the middle school there in my daughter and the advocate who helps my
daughter and I was the perosn who only obtained the alphasnart after my child
had been using it for a year.

As you can see from the boards here more and more parents are becomming aware
that this disability is becomming more widely indenfied and addressed by the
schools.
Until I started reading the boards here the only child I knew who had
dysgrpahia was my oldest child who is now 28 and diagnosed when she was
almost 17 years old. Ten years and only 5 children total. Amazing isn't it.
Maybe one day it will be common place to see a classroom with several
children using processors or labtops because we have led the way.
Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Typing in 5th grade   Date:  97-10-14 11:12:56 EST
From:  Lynnebl

I am opening my eyes to the fact that my 9-year-old needs to use an
alternative route in order to express himself in writing.  We have the Mavis
Beacon program at home but he doesn't like it.  He has used the PAWS program
at school and it was more acceptable.  Although the school is willing to
teach typing, I am told the AlphaSmart will only be approved for children
with physical limitations such as cerebral palsy.  I have not asked for the
AlphaSmart in an IEP yet, but will do so soon.  In the meantime, my son is
being counted off on his papers for poor handwriting.  It is the school that
diagnosed a disability in written expression and visual motor integration, is
there any valid research to support grading this way to assist in getting
better performance?  The only results I see is a negative effect on
self-esteem.    Lynne

SUBJECT:  Re:Typing in 5th grade   Date:  97-10-14 15:07:17 EST
From:  DaysOfPooh

Lynne ,

Our 6 year old is learning to keyboard using a program called " Read , Write
and Type " by The Learning Company . It teaches the location of the letters
and uses games to have the kids practice , starting with typing one letter
then space , letter , space etc . As the child learns more letters they
combine the letters into words . It also has a word processer . It has been
wonderful and our daughter thinks its just a game but she is learning SO much
!!!! As for marking your son down due to his poor writing , I would for sure
make sure that there are clearly defined expectations and modifications .
Making a child feel bad is NOT the way to foster success and positive
feelings !!!

Nancy

SUBJECT:  Typing Success/Alpha Smart   Date:  97-10-14 20:01:10 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

I have some good news. We requested our son have typing including in his IEP
since last April. It was added this summer and now finally he is actually
gettting typing lessons twice a week by the school Occupational threapist. He
is being taught on a school computer using the Mavis Beacon teaching program
and is the only student in elementary school that is being taught typing.
When and if any other student has typing added to their IEP one of the two 30
minute typing lessons a week will be in a group.

His Resource Teacher has him type all of his spelling assignments in his
Alpha Smart.
Monday- He put the 20 words in alphabetical order
Tuesday- He types sentences for 10 words
Wednesday- he looks up the definition of words and types them in "Alphie"
thursday- Studies for Spelling Test.

He seems to suddenly like typing. I am relieved he will finally learn to
type. I would encourage other parents to have typing included in your childs
curriculum. 5th grade is not too soon. My son resisted learning to type until
now. Today was the first day he willingly sat at the computer to type and
after only one lesson seems to know where a lot of the keys are.  Libby

SUBJECT:
Re:Typing Success/Alpha Smar   Date:  97-10-15 14:23:18 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

< His Resource Teacher has him type all of his spelling assignments in his
Alpha Smart.
Monday- He put the 20 words in alphabetical order>

Just a hint that made all the diference with using the alphasamrt. When you
transfer the work for the day into your home computer. USE at least a 18 size
font. Also get him used to putting each subject in a different file/ English
for one Social STudies for another. This is great to learn this now then in
middle school he will be used to setting up his files/ saving all the work on
a disk. All skills that will save you time and worry. No more lost papers/
when a paper is missing for what ever reason you just reprint. Using the
bigger font really helps with organizing his thoughts. He wil be able to look
at what he has written and better able to see that he needs to work on it
more.

Take Care Barb.


SUBJECT:  Dysgraphia/Written Language   Date:  97-10-17 09:16:48 EST
From:  JQCarp

Subject: Dysgraphia and Written language problems   Date: Wed, Oct 15, 1997 1:25 PM
From: JQCarp
Message-id: <[e-mail]>

Susan, Mars, Ratatat:  You have been so helpful!  We had a CET for my 8
yr/2nd gr.daughter last week.  (She has quite severe ADD and has been on
Ritalin since age 5 and received OT services from ages 5-7.)  She reads above
grade level (gr 3-4) - although  sometimes skips words and lines.  Her
spelling skills are on grade level.  Her overall math skills are also on
grade level but she has difficulting mastering basic facts.  The major
problems
 are attention/focusing and completing most written work. We are working with
pediatricain/psychiatrist/social worker to determine a medication alternative
as the Ritalin helps significantly but not enough (and she takes a high
dose).  The school is very supportive and is writing up a plan for support in
the classroom (1/2 hr x 5 days) from the OT and from the Special Educator to
keep her on task to complete written assignments.  It sounds good,
 right?  But here's my concern: the root of the written language/dysgraphia
problem and what could/should be done for remediation, not just a band-aid
get the work done with 1-1.  Her printing and spacing (D'Nelian) are poor and
she never has enjoyed coloring.  She just doodles/scribbles.  Left to her own
in the classroom she will often just do nothing.  The teacher sees the
problem as inattention and stubborness.  I agree that she can be stubborn.
 (She's very quiet and they question passive aggression.) but I'm really
starting to believe it's an issue of "I can't" more than "I won't".  (A lot
of testing was done: WISC, OT, Educational and the main concern is
inconsistencies, so that it's hard to determine too many specifics.  The
social worker suggested testing for auditory processing and initial screening
again revealed a concern with inconsistencies with a recommendation for
further
 testing.)  I see the difference as important because I think the remedial
approaches would be different.  I think the school just wants her to get her
work done.  She likes school and I don't want her to start to loose it.  I
have Taming the Dragons and use the writing activities.  No incomplete
classwork is ever sent home this year for us to complete together, because
the teacher doesn't want her to think she can get away with not doing her
work in
 school and then bringing it all home.  I agree with her concept, but don't
think that applies here.  Meanwhile her incomplete folder at school must be a
couple of inches thick by now.  I mentioned the Dreamwriter and the OT tried
one before and didn't like it.  (I told my daughter that if she could show me
that she could do her written work on the computer at home, then I would get
one for school.)  I've gone back to look at my old teaching books
 and plan to follow some of the remediation suggestions in Myklebust and
Johnson.  Do you have any suggestions for materials more current?  Am I on
the right track here, or making something out of nothing....sometimes I just
don't know......Thanks for any thoughts!!! JQCarp







SUBJECT:  Re:Dysgraphia/Written Langua   Date:  97-10-17 10:40:29 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote<

<  Am I on the right track here, or making something out of nothing..>

 I am only a parent like you are. So I am going to give you my opinion. I
think you are on the right tract. If you don't think she is trying to get her
work done and just can't , then I would go with my gut feeling. children who
are dysgraphic don't like to write and avoid doing it. So yes she could very
well not be able to finish the work but you could  also find  that she
doesn't want to try because it has been so difficult all along. It is a duel
edged sword. These children need stratagies early.

There seems to me to be a lot of testing being done and since it looks like
to me from what you have said the results are inclusive ( this could be due
to the ADD getting in the way). what is the point of further testing, unless
you need it to to recieve some type of other service that the school won't
provide unless the testing results say they must, and I would questions that.


My point is why  test anymore, you know there are areas that are causing her
problems, Start getting interventions to help her now. Writing seems to be an
big issue with her, how well have the interventions  you have now worked for
her  from your point of view. You sounded worried about stacks of unfinished
work piling up at school. Well the issue isn't that she doesn't finish the
work at school, is she learning the materia is the soul of the matterl. Why
not finished copies of all school work to be sent home, so your daughter does
what she can, but she still has a completed copy to study from. The issue is
not can she fill out a ditto in the same timeas everyone else, but has she
learned the material presented. Home work should go the same way it is not
how long she sits and completes the work by herself, it is does she get the
information or skill that is being taught. You don't always have to do all
the work yourself to learn. FInd stragies to decrese the frustration with the
writing process, yet still allow her to learn the material. Make sure that
they implement the same stratgies in the class room.

You mentioned that doing work on the computer. Have you thought that all
homework can be done on the computer ( except math) It means let her just
type the answers that  for each ditto then staple it to the ditto page. Let
her touch type, but when it looks like that is getting tiring switch and you
type and she tells you the answer. You learn either way.

In the end you have to descide for yourself how much more testing you think
she needs. I never met a secound graded who really didn't want to do well in
shcool. Don't let a teacher or anyone label her lazy or stuborn, that's the
easy way out of finding solutions for a parent or teacher.

Be creative/ get rid of old concepts/ look for problems and find solutions
make sure they are in her plan. Always assume if she isn't doing her work or
is having difficulty that this is related in some way to a learning problem/
NOT that she just doesn't want tooo.

As I said this is just how I operate my life with my kids and what I would do
if I were you.
As has been said here if it looks like a duck quacks like a duck probobly is
a duck ( in my version some fool, sees a duck/ hears the duck and still
believes he has a goose)

Take care Barb

SUBJECT:  Dysgraphia www.   Date:  97-10-18 08:50:03 EST
From:  Grace2al

I ran across this the other day and I had never seen it. If you print it
there are 9 pgs. and aol keeps asking if you want to log off.. Anyway, it's
very helpful and a great handout for teachers and others. It's trought the
Inland empire branch of the Riverside county library. Also read the bio on
the author. Those of us in Ca. might find it helpful. And no I do not know
her.
The www address is: http://www.cpl.net/ods/html/dysgraphia.html

SUBJECT:
Re:Dysgraphia www.   Date:  97-10-20 07:57:00 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

< I ran across this the other day and I had never seen it. >

It is a nice web site. Thanks for posting it.

Take Care Barb




SUBJECT:  Re:Typing Success/Alpha Smart   Date:  97-10-20 16:43:16 EST
From:  LMCGZ

My son is now learning keyboarding using the diana King method..his tutor had
him typing the entire alphabet(blind) in one session...it floored me..  I
have worked with him..his Ot had worked with him..."Mario" had worked with
him ... and nothing.  Its so much fun when something finally works..isn't
it?

SUBJECT:  Re:Typing Success/Alpha Smar   Date:  97-10-20 23:36:32 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, you wrote:

<   Its so much fun when something finally works..isn't it?>

Makes a parents day doesn't it!!!!!
Really happy for you and your son.

Take Care BArb

SUBJECT:  Re:Typing Success/Alpha Smar   Date:  97-10-21 07:11:36 EST
From:  Ratatat

<My son is now learning keyboarding using the diana King method.>

I'd love to hear more about this King method.  Can someone explain.. tell me
more?

SUBJECT:  Re: Dysgraphia www.   Date:  97-10-21 22:57:52 EST
From:  Lynnebl

<It is a nice web site. Thanks for posting it.>

What a great web site!!  I have printed out the information on dysgraphia and
sent it to my friends who are not connected to the web.            Lynne

SUBJECT:
Re: Newsweek    Date:  97-10-22 14:26:30 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello, just thought I would post that their is a nice article in newsweek
about LD. They meniton dysgraphia and dysnomia. First time I have ever seen
those two mentioned.

Keyword newsweek will get you there full article there to read.
Don;t read the responces they will sadden you, general public reads and doesn
not process the information well. Wonder why that is.

Maybe they can't read and interput it like we would as they don't have the
background. Must be that, can't really imagine anyone who wants to throw
children out the door, so to speak. We need more information out there not
less. The more who gain a basic knowlege of what LD and ADD disabilities are
the less negative responces will be sent out their about our children.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  No name on paper   Date:  97-10-23 00:10:54 EST
From:  Lynnebl

My children forget to write their name on their papers on a regular basis.
Is this common?  The teachers are not understanding of this problem at all.
On one paper, my child was given a "second chance" and the paper was returned
to him.  He wrote his name with a pen and turned it back in.  He was then
given a zero because the instructions were to write in pencil.  My children
find writing with pen is easier than pencil.  Is this common with
dysgraphia?

SUBJECT:  Re:No name on paper   Date:  97-10-23 07:46:46 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Lyn,

Yes I have found it to be very common. In fact I still do it as an adult. My
children do it all the time. I have had great luck as my childrens teachers
usually catch on that they have a hard time remembering to do the routine
things like that on papers.

There are several reasons that occurs, one it takes so much concentration to
work on papers of any sort. There is a lot of stress involved with that, can
I get it done on time, trying to think and write at the same time. My chidren
don't get marked down for that at all and I would certainly make an issue if
the teachers did that. I would also add that as an intervetnion on IEP if it
should get sticky.

I also have on my childrens plans that they have the choice of using pen or
pencil as they chose to do written work not done on the alphasmart.

I know this sounds awfull, but our children have enough to deal with that is
not observable to most for a teacher to make an issue of this is nit picking.

I get certified every year in one area of my job or another my name has to be
at the top of the page. I have forgotten to do that on several occasions. It
just just so hard to keep little things like that tucked into your brain and
think of the bigger issue like passing the test. That it goes out the door so
to speak. ( at least where I work they just laugh and fill in my name< they
all recongize my handwritng). I have forgotten to fill in my name on checks,
credit cards, you name it I've done it. Tell the teacher  to get a life (
this is not a major issue here, bigger issue is did child learn the work, and
in my opinion the only issue) and tell your child to get a sence of humor it
will be needed.

School is a place to learn and be happy. If a teacher/ parent/ is placing
restrictions on either one of those areas then shame on then.



SUBJECT:  Get a stamp   Date:  97-10-23 10:50:01 EST
From:  Grace2al

It may sound foolish but part of the problem is that after all the writing
the name is the least important. Talk to the teacher and get a stamp. They
remember easier because its fun and after awhile it makes the teacher realize
how silly she is. As the kids mature they can stop and think of what they may
have forgotten but now. What ever works it's process not product at this
point.
Please don't come back with product is important I agree but what's the goal
with each assignment? They get the knowledge or they color between the
correct lines even if the answer's wrong. You get my point.

SUBJECT:  Re:name on
paper   Date:  97-10-23 13:02:54 EST
From:  TPZT1996

This is just unbelievable.  My son can not remember to put his name on his
paper no matter how hard he tries.  Last year, they had to write their name
so many times each time they forgot.  By the time school was out last year,
he was writing his name over 300 times, more than once a week.  This year, he
is already up to 30 times.  I will discuss this with his teacher immediately,
and stop this name writing "crap".  So glad someone brought it up.  Pam

SUBJECT:
Re:No name on paper   Date:  97-10-23 16:32:53 EST
From:  Lynnebl

Thanks, Barb
Your letter is so encouraging.  So I'm not crazy or over protective!!  I feel
my children cannot honestly remember the "silly little rules" when they have
the stress of producing a handwritten paper.  I will deal with this and see
what happens.            Lynne

SUBJECT:  Re:No name on paper   Date:  97-10-24 00:14:04 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello your wrote:

<   So I'm not crazy or over protective!!  >

No your overly protective. Yes the punishment for forgetting his name at the
top of the paper should be stoped.

Remember though it is hard for someone else to understand this glitch. They
can't really see it, feel it and the child can't articulate it for a long
time. So a lot of your job will be to educate those arround your child to
understand that these children put forth a lot of effort to produce the work
they do and with time and a lot of intervention it does get better.

Kerry always types her name in her word processor first this year. She is in
8th grade. It has finally clicked, but only when she is using her processor.
If she hand writes something it goes out the door.

Take Care Barb ( my children and I have fun sitting arround trying to figure
what we have in common and what is different and which glitch belongs to what
dianosis. Most people or kids never have that opportunity. It has broadened
our out look.)

SUBJECT:  Re: Newsweek & Others   Date:  97-10-24 09:02:56 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

Thank you for letting us know about the article in Newsweek on Learning
disabilities and a previous message with the Internet address for Dysgraphia.
It seems that dyslexia/dysgraphia is finally becoming widely recognized as a
learning disability.

The state of  California is very progressive in their treatment of
Dysgraphia. I wish New York would catch up. The "Dysgraphia" message  area
is one of the most active in the Special Education area and I hope we
continue to stay informed and bring about the necessary changes into the
educational system.

Keep up the good work..   Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:No name on paper   Date:  97-10-24 10:15:52 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello You wrote:

So I'm not crazy or over protective!! / i wrote back no your overly
protective. was tired meant to say your not overly protective/ ( sorry)

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  progress report   Date:  97-10-24 12:29:34 EST
From:  GlynFP1

For anyone who's interested...

My 4th grade son has been getting help in the resource room this year after
having been "officially" id'd as having a ld in written expression at the end
of last year.  I have to say that I'm already seeing a difference, mostly in
his attitude.  He doesn't seem as intimidated about writing.  He even said
"sometimes writing is kind of fun."  (Of course, he was up until 10:30 last
night wrestling with a writing assignment.)  Anyway,  we haven't had as many
tears this year.  His ld teacher says he's doing beautifully and is a joy to
work with.  :)
One problem...he hasn't made a connection between what he's learning in the
resource room (graphic organizers, story webs, etc.) and what he does in the
regular classroom.  One day he was grumping his way through a written
assignment and I told him to use what he was learning in the resource room. I
said the reason he was in there was to help him learn skills that he should
apply in the regular classroom.  He said, "Oh, I didn't know that."  He
thought that all that work in the ld room was something he was learning in a
vacuum!  Aaargh.

Glyn

SUBJECT:  Re:progress report   Date:  97-10-24 21:41:40 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello your wrote:

<   He said, "Oh, I didn't know that.">

That is so true!! If the kids dont' see the connection with the interviention
or teaching stratagy there is a real danger they will only see themselves
with extra work that the other children don't have to do. It could result in
a lot of frustration. From my point of view resource shouldn't be graded it
should be a class that they know they may do work in but there doesn't have
to be a grade to possibly fail at.

Take care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Typing Success/Alpha Smar   Date:  97-10-27 16:54:19 EST
From:  Lynnebl

<I'd love to hear more about this King method.  Can someone explain.. tell me
more?>

I am wanting more information about the Diana King typing method that was
mentioned previously.
Thanks,  Lynne

SUBJECT:  Re:No name on paper   Date:  97-10-28 07:09:48 EST
From:  Ratatat

<My children forget to write their name on their papers on a regular basis. >

Maybe you could get some of those self-inking stamps with your child's name
so they can stamp their names on the top of the paper, then include in the
IEP that they have the right to label their papers with their name in either
pencil, ink or with the stamp.  The goals is to get them to identify the
paper as their own - it shouldn't matter what media is used.

SUBJECT:  Re:No name
on paper   Date:  97-10-28 08:27:58 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<  Maybe you could get some of those self-inking stamps with your child's
name so they can stamp their names on the top of the paper, >

I know this is opening a can of beans , but here goes.

I thought a lot about the stamp pad idea when my children where in elementary
school. I didn't think it would work for them. First,  one of the reasons
they forget is that they never had time to finish their papers in the school
setting. So when an activity ended there would be little time to pull out the
ink pad and find the stamp in their desk stamp the paper. I observed many of
their classes over the year. They always looked like they were in a race to
keep up with the rest of the class. It is something to concider when
implementing any new stratagy. Does it require more time, is it adding one
more step for them to remember ( and they are already having difficulty doing
that), is there desk a mess, is there room on the top of the desk to keep the
stamp pad on the desk for easy access?

I think a trial run with any intervetion is a good thing. Why not try it and
do an observation. That may sound like over kill for a stamp pad, but for me
it was the desciding factor with not using a stamp pad in the younger years
at school. I also found that once the girls started using the alphasmart pro
that getting them to put their name on the paper now comes more easily as
they have the time to think of the details, though they miss occasionally,
and that usually only happens with written work.

SUBJECT:  Re:No name on paper   Date:  97-10-28 14:10:32 EST
From:  Ratatat

<So when an activity ended there would be little time to pull out the ink pad
and find the stamp in their desk stamp the paper.>

Barb, I agree - plus it would be possibly very messy.  That's why I suggested
on of those self-inking types.  You just push down, and voila! there is the
print.  No stamp pad needed.  It would actually take less time than writing
out one's name, especially if writing is a difficult task.

SUBJECT:  Re:No name
on paper   Date:  97-10-30 08:12:59 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello Ratatat:

<  That's why I suggested on of those self-inking types.  You just push down,
and voila! there is the print. >

Well you promted a lively discussion at the dinner table last night. My
youngest children discussed the pros and cons of what would help eleminate
forgetting to put your name at the top of the page. Their answer more time.
They both agreed they know that their name needs to be on their papers, but
small details like that( putting name on paper) just don't stay in your head
when you are faced with pulling important information for the work at hand.
They both said the class is always moving on when they are still working on
the task at hand and there is not enough transition time to stop and look at
your paper and think what did I forget.

Thought is would be nice to see how they viewed the name thing. By the way
youngest just got marked off for forgetting to put name on her test. When I
looked at it 1/2 of test was left undone. Sort of a clue isn't it. Means a
call to the powers to be at school.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Forgetting name etc.   Date:  97-10-30 09:39:23 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

   Our son is classified and has dysgraphia and one of his accommodations is
for his tests to be given to him in the resourse room and when applicable
orally. I'm am sure his resource teacher has to on accasion remind him to put
his name on the paper. WE must remember to ask: is this a test in memory or
science, math, or social studies. ect?
   If you need evidence that a student with dysgraphia is not intentionaly
forgetting to do what he is told and he is not being lazy....go to the site
recommended in a previous post www.cpl.net/ods/html/dysgraphia.html. print
this and give it to the teacher. This will support that your children do not
always have to be held accountable like other students who should be
remembering to dot all their I's cross their T's and put a period at the end
of al sentences.

  I have had a reat deal of success in getting the teachers to cooperate but
supporting my requests with facts.  I always give them a copy of a document
that supports what I am asking for.
Libby
 I feel one of the standard accommodation for students in elementary school
who are dysgraphics.
is that their tests be given in the resource rom or at least by a resource
teacher. whether the test is given orally or not depends on the situation and
the subject.


SUBJECT:  writing problems   Date:  97-10-30 11:04:55 EST
From:  LKSPEC

Hi,

My  son is in the 3rd grade & ADHD.  He has difficulty in written language
that he has trouble composing his thoughts down on paper.  He goes blank & it
takes a lot of work generating ideas onto paper.  When he does think of
something what we have to do is he tells it to me then I need to dictate it
back to him as he writes it down (I also wind up spelling everything for
him).  He had an essay project due & I had organized a story web for him with
the central idea & details that he thought of.  I think organizing his
thoughts is maybe where his problem starts from.

Another thing is  he is also having physical trouble writing.  He complained
about his hand hurting from writing & I have noticed that he will use his
opposite hand to guide his pencil sometimes.  So its like he is holding his
pencil & then uses a finger from the other hand to guide it along. He does
not have a good pencil grasp either.  We've tried to correct this since Kdg &
he still goes back to his old way. He has a history of fine motor problems,
but I thought he had outgrown them.  When he slows down to write he can have
nice handwriting.  We've had him evaluated last year for written language LDs
& he did not meet the criteria, although he was said to be borderline.

Does this sound like a specific LD or dysgraphia?   Maybe he needs some type
of OT?



SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-10-30 11:32:47 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

< Another thing is  he is also having physical trouble writing. >

Many of the symtoms you describe strongly suggest dysgraphia.
Does your child have an IEP or 504 plan where you could add  accomedations
to help him with his writing difficulties? There are many things that can be
done to help him. Even without a formal diagnosis or even a formal plan.

What type of testing was done to access for the writing problems.?  Did the
ADD get in the way of when taking the orginal testing? What was borderline?
How long ago was the testing done?

I would suggest to look at the testing that was done? See if written
expression testing was done? After accessing that. I would make a list of
problems you see realated to school. Then I would write a letter to school
requesting a team meeting to address either further testing for LD's. and to
start intervetions now in school to address his needs regarding written
expression problems.

Write and give us more information, everyone here, would love to help you. It
can be frustrating when you know there is a problem, but were does it come
from and how do you fix it.

Take Care Barb

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-10-30 13:21:53 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

In the past I have wondered where the expert model advice should come from
and I am afraid I found the answer: We as parent must become our childs best
advocate. We must learn what acommodations are best for our dysgraphic
children.

A thorough evaluatin must be done to determine exactly what Learning
Disability if any our child has. If an answer is given "they are borderline"
or "We can't find anything specific" you must seek an outdise evaluation.
contact your local chapter of the orton Dyslexic Society for a referral of
who could give you this evaluation. You may have to pay for this yourself,
and a complete evaluation can cost as must as $1800.  But what is the
alternative? Year after year your bright child sinks deaper and deaper into
educational failure.

We had a professional "highly" recommeded outside Educational Psychologist
evaluate our son in the 2nd grade and no specific Learning disability was
found. After the 2nd evalutation by a different Dr. was done we discovered
the "Dysgraphia."

Your parental instinct is usually correct. if you truly think there is a
problem.. you must persure the answer until you find out which learning
disability they have. Then you must learn what accommodations are best for
your child. Unfortunately our  school systems know little about which
accommodations are best for students with dysgraphia.

The special education committee is now taking every suggestion i make and are
trying to empliment them. It scares me because I can only hope my suggestions
are the right ones.
Our son works with a resource teacher every day. She gives him all his tests
in a resource room usually orally. He is the only elementary student getting
Occupational threapy in typing. Usually typing is not taught until 7th grade.
Since he is in the 5th grade we felt it was too late to start any writing
threapy. He has a special spelling list of 20 words he must learn each week.
Every word is from the same spelling rule or phonics rule. the bonus word
isusually from the Social Studies or Science material. Believe it or not he
has made 100 on almost every test.

So there can be success but you must know which accommodations to insist on.
Every child is different. Read and learn how to work with the school system.
Good Luck.. Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-10-30 13:34:37 EST
From:  LKSPEC

Hi mars,

here goes the history from last years evals:

Test given by LD teacher...

Diag Ach Battery 2 -writing composition, capitalization & punct.)
He scored in the 25%tile compared to NATL norm (our district scores much
higher)

Test of Written Spelling 2 - (predictable & unpredictable words)
he scored in the 14%tile compared to a NATL norm.

Curriculum Based Measurement - scores compared to 2nd grade students within
district.
Math - 10CD - 27%tile
Writing - 11TWW - 9%tile,
Reading - 78/4 - 25%tile

Testing given by SLP....

GFTA (assesses sound production at single word level).
Inconsistently produces /s,z/ correctly.  (Eric has an IEP for S/L since
preschool)

PPVT-R (receptive vocab)
he scored low average range 14%tile

EDWPVT (expressive vocab)
he scored high average range 89%tile

BOEHM basic concepts
scored average range 60-65%tile

CELF-R recept & expressive lang
within normal range (they gave no %tiles in the report)

Subtest for CELF-R  above in "formulated sentences"
"below average range because 1) past tense ver usage errors & 2) he did not
respond to all or use the indicated words occasionally."

Testing given by School Psych.....

WISC-3
verbal IQ = 94, 34th%tile
Perf IQ = 98, 45th%tile
Full scale IQ: 95,  37th%

Tester noted that my son 'raced' through the testing as if speed counted.


I personally believe that these tests show more than a borderline problem.
When I asked for explanations, I'm told that he is doing 'OK' in class, and
his IQ & tests do not meet the criteria.

I also believe that the IQ test is invalid.  My son was more interested in
doing the problems quickly, not correctly.  He is very intelligent.

so what do you think???







SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-10-30 21:53:40 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I personally believe that these tests show more than a borderline problem.
When I asked for explanations, I'm told that he is doing 'OK' in class, and
his IQ & tests do not meet the criteria.>

I'm sorry, but criteria for eligibility are usually based on comparisons and
then the discrepancies between tests.  I don't know how they can say that one
test doesn't meet something.  Doesn't it have to be compared to something
else?

SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-10-31 12:33:30 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<   also believe that the IQ test is invalid.  My son was mstinge interested
in doing the problems quickly, not correctly.  He is very intelligent.  >

Keep in mind here I don't know testing. I knew enough to make the system work
for my child, but here is how I see the testing for your child.

In regard to the Corriculum Based tests: to me these test scores indicate
that he is having great difficulty as he is testing % below the norm, from my
reasoning these tests just point to the fact he is either having problems
acquiring the information he needs to know, or he is having problems pulling
the infromation he does know out to answer the test questions. These tests
don't show the  reason he is having diffculty. So from my logic you need to
know the why, since you know your son is demestrating to you that he is
smart.

The next set of tests given by the slp: indicated that he is having some
speech problem, which you say is being addressed already. When I look at some
of these  tests I think that he looks like there is a reading problem that
relates to how how he interputs what he is reading. That he can read , but he
will have difficulty when he interputs the information as he may not always
have the ability to understand the finer points of the text,. So he may
misinterput the important points that need to be learned. I am only mussing
here, but these tests too suggest, yes he has a problem, but needs more
indepth testing to find out what the exact cause is.

The last test WICK -3

This is a hard one the scores need to be so many points apart to quialfy  LD
in a given area.
The scores for the Wick-3 you show don't indicate that, but my question is
why wasn't more testing done, such as Woodcock Johson Psychoeducational
Battery/ Gender Visual Motor Gestalt as well as an infromal Assessment of his
handwriting. I would seem to me you would need to know this to have a clearer
picture,  So that is something you could ask or pursue further.
Was the testing appropriate to access your concerns for your child is another
question that needs to be asked. It is obvious from the first tests scores
something is causing him problems.

I had one child who the school said didn't quiafy by the numbers ( they lied,
but that's beside the issue). I think that you already have enough from the
above testing to get the help your child needs. The school says he didn't
quiafy by the numbers. Well not all children do, that doesn't mean they can't
get the interventions he needs.

If he is recieving speech then he is already covered by a formal plan. I
would call your OCR office and relate the test scores tell them he doesn't
quialfy for an IEP, but why not a 504 plan. That's what the OCR in my area
suggested to me. Going this route has worked well, I have my one child
covered under that plan. I have it written that she has a neurological
problem ( dysgraphia) that is causing her problems with writen expression
area and thus as this is a medical condition is covered by OHI. She has the
same accomedations as my other child, just different plan. The only
difference I can see is one plan sets goals and the other doesn't.

I may have the wrong slant on these tests. So another option is to take the
test results to a neropyschologist. Have him look at he tests scores, tell
him what you see as causing your son problems and see what other testing he
could suggest to give your son to find out the exact root of his problems.
Remember at his age it is harder to indentify a problem as the norms of tests
for that age group show that a lot of chidren are at different levels of
developmental growth so the norm for the group is larger. Older children the
disparity is easier to access as the developmental growth has peaked so to
speak. So differences are more easilty spotted on testing. That can make it
hard to pick up LD's early.

I hope my slant on the testing is correct. If anyone else can enlighten me
and the poster please respond.
Barb



SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-10-31 23:38:17 EST
From:  Lynnebl

<I personally believe that these tests show more than a borderline problem.
When I asked for explanations, I'm told that he is doing 'OK' in class, and
his IQ & tests do not meet the criteria.>

I don't know a lot about testing either, but I can make one observation about
these test results.  I am used to comparing the *standard score* of the IQ
test to the *standard scores* on the academic testing.  You have given us
*percentile scores* making this impossible.  An example would be a full scale
IQ of 98 with only a 82 on the reading test would give an 16 point difference
which would qualify as a servere discrepancy in my state.  If receive
percentile scores only, I ask the school Diagnostician to give me the
standard scores too so that I may understand the testing better.
Lynne

SUBJECT:  Testing?????   Date:  97-11-01 12:41:31 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

How does one go about having a child tested for this.  Reading this folder
has been like seeing my child in print.  She is an 11 yr old 6th grader who
has gone from being on the honor roll for 5 years to flunking this year.
This year her handwritting has gone from bad to extermely bad, and her
frustration level (and mine) has increased 10 fold.  She spends 5 to 6 hours
a day on homework only to get in trouble for not following directions, IE:
headings on paper, using pencil instead of pen, sloppy papers, etc.
Is it normal for this problem to show its head this late?  Or has she come to
a brick wall that she can nolonger cope and adapt?
She does so well on oral tests but awful on written ones.
What should be my next steps?

HELP

Susan

SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-11-01 12:44:51 EST
From:  GlynFP1



Lynnebl writes  --  << An example would be a full scale IQ of 98 with only a
82 on the reading test would give an 16 point difference which would qualify
as a servere discrepancy in my state. >>

In my state a child must exhibit a 23 point discrepancy!  My son just managed
to slip in with a 23 point discrepancy.  One point less and he wouldn't be
getting the help that he so obviously needs.  There really should be some
kind of standardized requirements for special education.  To think that one
child can't get special ed services in one state but would be able to get
help if he happened to live in the next state over--that's tragic.

Glyn



SUBJECT:  Re:Testing?????   Date:  97-11-01 12:48:18 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

opps, forgot to add that she also has ADD and a very high IQ.
See what frustration can do to ones thought process.

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing?????   Date:  97-11-01 18:31:34 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

< Is it normal for this problem to show its head this late? >

No not unusuall at all most children aren't identified till there school work
falls apart completly. Some children manage to cope on their own, but most
don't. Third grade is were in retrospect parents start getting clues that
things are off, but usually not enough for most teachers and parents to
realize that a problem exists. Middle School is the heart breaker, 6
teachers, more instructions and more writing then they knew existed.

The lucky kids get picked up period, it is never too late.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-11-01 18:35:50 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

< In my state a child must exhibit a 23 point discrepancy!  >

In my state it was 15 points discrepancy. Your right it there needs to be
more standardization. If our children are being idendtified by the same
standard tests then why isn't the criteria the same for each child.

The Special Education Supervisor for my area stated at my IEP meeting years
ago that a 10 point descrepancy is considered severe by the experts. So why
aren't those experts making the quiafying criteria as well. Makes one wonder
doesn't it.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Typing Success/Alpha Smar   Date:  97-11-01 19:14:49 EST
From:  Mslowrain

My son sees a tutor at the Kildonian school in Amenia NY...he is being taught
this method for typing.. it has worked like nothing else Ive seen.. very
impressive.... she founded the school and Im certain they would be a great
resource.. I don't have thier phone number right here...but I bet they have a
web site...

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing?????   Date:  97-11-01 20:08:48 EST
From:  SGorby

Sixth grade sounds like a reasonable time to notice this problem, although
I'll bet you've seen it coming for longer than that.  My son son is in fifth
grade this year and in his first year of middle school and this is the year
that is has all fell apart for him.  The first signs of it were in third
grade, though, like they seem to be for a lot of others.  He too has been
spending 5-6 hours a night on homework.

I got  no results from his homeroom teacher or the school principal.  They
told me it was just a period of adjustment to middle school.( No way!)  since
he is also in a gifted pull-out program I next went to his gifted teacher and
told her my son was in a "crisis situation" and that something had to be
done.  He is scheduled to be evaluated next week by the school psychologist.
She said she will start with a test for visual-motor abilities and see if
that turns up anything and procede from there.  She semed to know exactly
what I was talking about which came as a huge relief after trying for months
to convince someone there was really a problem.  She mentioned dysgraphia
right away after hearing my concerns. No one else I talked to had even heard
of it.

Start with your daughter's teachers and keep going until someone listens.  Be
persistent and insistent.  You daughter shouldn't have to go through this.

Sue

SUBJECT:  testing   Date:  97-11-02 09:27:11 EST
From:  Mithue

If a child has a low IQ, and has commensurate Standard Scores on educational
testing (ie. Woodcock) then this child does not qualify for resource. BUT if
the same child has the SAME standard scores on a language evaluation, this
child WILL qualify for speech and language services, at least in my district.
We've been told to compare langauge scores with an average IQ since it is
'possible' to have low IQ and a language disability. Does anyone else have
this paradigm in their district?
Sue

SUBJECT:  Re:writing problems   Date:  97-11-02 11:26:14 EST
From:  LKSPEC

hi,

My sons WISC 3 IQ scores were written somewhat differently in 2 places in the
eval. It looks like the same info, just written out differently,  I hope what
I type makes sense

listed under VIII. Special Evaluation, school psychological:

Scores:
 Verbal 45 = (34th percentile)
 Performance 48 = (45th percentile)
 Full scale 93 = (37th percentile)

Listed under 'Additional Information'

Scores:
 Verbal score 45 = (Verbal IQ = 94, 34th percentile)
 Peformance score 48 = (Peformance IQ = 98, 45th percentile)
 Full scale score 93 (IQ score = 95, 37th percentile).

Summary:

"Test results from this administration of the WISC-III indicate that
limitations of general learning aptitute can be ruled-out as a potential
contributing cause of current educational difficulties."



SUBJECT:  Re:Testing????   Date:  97-11-02 12:50:24 EST
From:  Lynnebl

<How does one go about having a child tested for this.>

Hi, I don't think this part of your question was answered yet.  As a parent
you have the right to initially identify and request that the school test
your child.  You should do this in writing.  My state advocacy group provides
sample letters to help parents write the letter.  If you would like a copy of
it e-mail me at [e-mail]                     Lynne

SUBJECT:  Problem
Teacher   Date:  97-11-02 17:03:05 EST
From:  Jena39

My kindergarten daughter receives resource help three times a week for a
visual-motor
LD. (1/2 hr increments)  She also receives 1 hr. a week of OT.

My problem is that her LD teacher is extremely defensive and anytime my
husband or I
try to offer input (and we are quite diplomatic about it) she becomes very
defensive and
says that we "are questioning her professional judgment".  Of course, we
arent and in fact
this teacher has an excellent reputation in the school.

As long as we stay out of things....they run smoothly.  But I have alot of
questions Id like
to ask her to educate myself and also to let her know what we are observing
in our daughter.
She seems to be interpreting this as overinvolvement on our part..when in
fact, we are just
trying to learn and help our daughter.

Its very frustrating....anyone else have this problem or any
suggestions?

SUBJECT:  Re:percentile vs standard   Date:  97-11-02 17:49:55 EST
From:  Lmazzola

Lynne and others:

If you are comparing the reading subtest of the Woodcock Johnson (as I assume
you are and for the purpose of this conversion) to the Full Scale IQ on the
WISC-III then they convert this way:

Full Scale IQ = standard Score 98   =   45th percentile (average range)

Reading        = standard Score 82    =   12th percentile (below average
range - but more
importantly, far below this child's cognitive
ability)

Average = Standard Scores of             85 - 155
Average = Percentiles Range of           16 - 84

I have found (as in it's been my experience) that each time scores are
reported to me, they are reported in a different format, ie subtest scores,
standard scores, percentiles, grade level or age equivilent. It is IMPOSSIBLE
to judge progress unless they are reported the same way each time. I prefer
to use percentiles because they allow you to see how this child is doing, not
only in relation to his/her own abilitiy, but to his/her peers.If the FS IQ
is at the 45% then his/her cognitive ability (how they should be able to
perform) is within the average range (meaning the majority of children their
age are similarily able). But, if they are actually functioning at the 12th
percentile in reading , then they are FAR below their own ability and their
peers.

I know it's a bit confusing, but I sent for Attorney Pete Wright's Parent
Advocacy package (it costs $25 and is WELL worth the money) and he has a lot
of information regarding testing and measurements (as well as the conversion
chart I used to convert Lynne's example) and how you NEED to know what they
mean in order to understand and advocate for your child.

I hope this helps, not confuses. ~ Lisa

SUBJECT:  Re:Pete Wright   Date:  97-11-03 16:55:46 EST
From:  Peggy 620

Where does one get Pete Wright's Parent Advocacy package?  It sounds like a
very useful resource for everyone fighting for their kids.

SUBJECT:  prior to
testing?   Date:  97-11-03 19:34:20 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

need suggestions on what to do before testing is done.  took letter to
principal today and he agreed to the testing and even mentioned the 504
umbrella (shocking, what?)  so it looks like getting her tested will not be a
problem (knocking on wood)  but what to do in the mean time?  do I request
that her teachers allow her to use what ever method of writing she is
comfortable with, ask that she be allowed to use pencil instead of pen?
should I even inform them that we think dysgraphia is the problem?  do I have
her do as much homework on the 'puter as possible?
any help would be appreciated.
thanks
susan


SUBJECT:  Re:prior to testing?   Date:  97-11-03 21:16:20 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

You may find that the teachers are baffled by your daughters struggling to
keep up. It is pre-mature to go directly to the teacher and ask her to begin
modifications. You should call the head of the Special committee or Board
that met to begin the evaluation process. Tell them your concerns and ask
them to contact the teacher and ask her to reduce the homework at least until
the testing is completed.
   This can be a very confusing time for the child. They need to be reassured
they are intelligent and that the tests are to determine just how smart they
are. Unfortunately the process usually takes weeks sometimes months to be
completed. The Occupational threapist may have a over stressed schedule, the
school Psychologist may be having her own problems. All these things make the
process take longer than seems possible.
    You must take as much presure off your child at this time. Appeal to the
principle if you have to, ask her to speak to the teacher and have her reduce
the homework, at least any writing assignments.  The presure will probably
make your daughters have even more difficulty completing any assignment. Be
loving and understanding at this time.
    This is a confusing time for parents as well. I kept asking myself: What
will the tests say if anything? When the test are complete then what do I do?
What will they do. Sometimes they do nothing without your insisting they make
accommodations. Become the squeeky wheel.
    Dysgraphia is a form of Dyslexia. This is a good time to read "Overcoming
Dyslexia" 2nd Edition. There are over 30 pages devoted to Dysgraphia. Go to
the library. Learn what you can about Specific learning Disabilities. If your
child has a learning Disability you must become her advocate. Unfortunately
even the resource teacher may know little about which accommodations should
be implemented.
    Follow all your phone requests in writing and keep copies. Make sure you
receive a complete copy of the evaluation. Then you will want someone to
explain exactly what the results mean.
    Keep us posted. We've been there and we know it is not easy.  Good luck.
Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:Pete Wright   Date:  97-11-03 21:18:20 EST
From:  Lmazzola

You can order the Advocacy Pak at [phone]

They(Pete Wright and his wife Pamela Darr Wright, LCSW) also have recently
put up a web site:
http://www.wrightslaw.com

I have no affiliation with them and am not soliciting on their behalf. I
happen to have found their pak extremely useful and felt it was well worth
the money.

Lisa

SUBJECT:  Re:prior to testing?   Date:  97-11-04 01:12:21 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<   It is pre-mature to go directly to the teacher and ask her to begin
modifications.>

I have a different tack on this. I would start accomedations now rather then
wait. Icreased time to complete assignments. Use of pencil or pen as which
ever your child feels she does better wtih. No mark downs for written work
done at school in regard to spelling a punctuation. A good organizational
plan that is simple an easy to follow for the child. Correct answers to be
sent home for applicable papers, note takers if needed.

Testing can take well over 30 days. That's a long time for a child to cope.
The laws state that accomedations should be made for every child even before
testing is done.

I would also recommend that you utilize the computer at home. If writing
demands are frustrating, you as a parent could type and let your child
dictate to you.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Jumpstart Typing   Date:  97-11-04 20:31:33 EST
From:  LoMo4UBAH

Just saw an ad in the newspaper for JUMPSTART TYPING cd-rom porgram.  I know
the other Jumpstart programs have a good reputation, and wonder if anyone has
heard of or reviewed this one.  Am looking for a FUN, EASY GOING program for
my 1st grader.  Thanks

Lori

SUBJECT:  Visual Motor Integration   Date:  97-11-08 23:53:32 EST
From:  Karrabu

My son's OT says he has a problem with VMI-visual motor integration.  So how
so you fix this.

SUBJECT:  LD Online Bulliten Board   Date:  97-11-09 00:29:44 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

I recently visited www.LDonline and found more postings for Dysgraphia. You
might want to visit this site if you don't already go there.  Libby

SUBJECT:
Re:Visual Motor Integration   Date:  97-11-09 11:44:50 EST
From:  Mars000210

:Hello you wrote:

< My son's OT says he has a problem with VMI-visual motor integration.  So
how so you fix this.  >

This is my main gripe with the system as a whole. We find a term and think ok
what's this how do I fix this, as if each new term should be delt with one
piece at at time. Or that it is seperate from the rest of the child as a
whole.( don't get me wrong, you have to know the underlying cause, but the
solutions should be how is this impacting on the child, what problems do you
see when the child is trying to learn). So my question why did the OT say she
thinks this is a visual-motor integration problem, what is she talking about,
so what she did is give the the diagnosis, but not the symtoms that is the
real clue to help your child)

I'll give you an example my children change head and body posture ( very
subtle) when writing. When children are writing left handers use left eye/
left hand and right handers use right eye/right hand. So the normal child
doesn't shift their positons much when they are writing. My children are
always recocking thier heards and hand positions when writing , it;s not real
noticible unless you look for it. Why do they do this? They do it because
with some types of dysgraphia the child may start out being right eye/ right
handed but while writing they change and the signals to write switch they may
be left eye/ right handed or change again and become right eye/ left handed
so on and so on. They don't physically change the hand which holds the pencil
and does the wriitng, but the signals are not comming into and out of their
bains the change. So they ajust thier seat positions and hand postions to
compensate . That could be one type of visual-motor integration problem.

The problem and source are good to know, but the issue is how does this
impact them in school. If a teacher requires that the child sit up straight
/hold a pencila in a certain grip/ not move arround in the seat/ you then
have a problem. As the restrictions hamper the child who in fact is
compensting for signals that are not functioning to the norm.

Imagine then again this same child while this is occurring durring the
writing process is losing time. Each ajustment to accomedate the signals to
and from the brain take away time from the wriitng process. So the child
doesn't finish paper on time and may not focus on directions being given in
the class as the concentration is on the writing process.

It is nice to know the casue, but the problem the teachers see's is a child
who sits slumped over who shifts their papers at time, has a poor pencil
grip/ who doesn't finish  his paper on time and misses directions and can't
copy far and near point work/ may be clumsy when palying in gym, seems
inatentive.

You have to know the cause and how that disgnosis impacts the school work.
So anyone who just tells you problem without symtoms and solutions has only
given you a piece of the problem. It dosent' help, think about it how much
more did you know after talking to this professional.

So my advice go back to the OT and ask. WHAT/ WHY/ WHEN/  WHERE and lastly
HOW.

Take Care Barb


SUBJECT:  Re:Visual Motor Integration   Date:  97-11-09 14:44:59 EST
From:  Annhere207

Barb,

You make an excellent point in your post about the practical implications of
a diagnosis in the
classroom.  My daughter was diagnosed with a visual-motor learning
disability...also referred to
as a perceptual-motor learning disability and Ive been trying to educate
myself about it.
It aint easy!!!  Even the psychologist who did the testing didnt have
recommendations about
what I could read on it.  The OT told us she had difficulty putting "out" on
paper what she
she took "in" her mind.  That was helpful but obviously I feel like I need to
know a lot more.

I happened, thank heavens, to run across the folder on Non Verbal Learning
disabilites, right
here on aol and discovered that is what my daughter has.  I guess its the new
label for visual-
motor ld.  Ive discovered that many professionals dont understand performance
based
learning disabilites and dont even know what to do to help the kids in the
classroom.
There seems to be alot more knowledge about language based learning
diabilities!  So I agree
its important to ask the 5 W's...but be prepared that, aside from the ot's,
the other professionals
may not be well informed about visual-motor problems.

I'm trying to understand what you meant about the way your kids position
themselves when
they write.  Is it also a balance issue for them?  Would you mind explaining
it again...Im quite
interested.

Julie

SUBJECT:  Re:Visual Motor Integration   Date:  97-11-09 15:55:35 EST
From:  Karrabu

Julie, one of the things the OT told me was that with VMI, Khris has trouble
getting what's in his brain to his fingers, and on paper.  I told her I knew
that, I have been saying that for years, I just did not know there was a term
for it.  I am still in the fog as to what specific therapy will help him with
that problem.  She said that using a computer or word processor will help
keep him from falling behind in school.  If the problem is with getting info
from the head to the hand, wouldn't he still have that problem with using the
wordprocessor.  I understand that at least with the work processor it won't
take as long, and will be readable.  I have watched him type, although he is
much better now, he still has some trouble getting his thoughts pulled
together in order to type them.  I found it really strange years ago when he
first started writing on the computer, he would connect words all as one word
just as he did when he hand wrote them.  It was like he did not recognize
that a spece belonged between words. I will question the OT more on Tuesday
about just how she plans to help him with the VMI problem.

SUBJECT:  Re:Visual
Motor Integration   Date:  97-11-09 16:53:54 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

< I'm trying to understand what you meant about the way your kids position
themselves when
they write.  >

The positioning thing with my chidren still falls into the visual-motor
integration process. It is very subtle as I said. My two children with this
who are left handed say they can feel it happening at times, the other two of
us who are right handed do not. We all have dysgraphia. I guess it is a nice
side line to know the process that is happening, but the issue for me is how
did it impact school work. Takes more time to do work, miss directions while
completing work, handwriting illegable, spelling problems, can't do near and
far point copying so on and so on. In many instances treating the symtom will
be enough to help the LD child. To look for this watch your child when
writing, do they have unsuall body positons that changes while they write,
slumped close to thier work, sitting on edge of chair. May tilt head one way
then another while writing. How many times in the class room does the chile
look up and down from overhead to copy something from the board or for that
matter from a book. I noticed with my two lefties that they would change bat
postions ( sounds cute ambidextrous), trouble was they were left handed and
they played better left handed not right handed, but they said it felt better
that way even though they didn't play better that way ( sometimes they did
this change several times durring the coarse of a game).

I always go with the most important thing when asking for interventions, does
it decrease the frustration my child feels in school, does it increase the
amount of knowlege they must acquire to be sucessfull and most important,
does my child want this done for them.
Take Care Barb


 I know how you feel about where do I find the information. It is read a lot
about learining disabilities in general and search for a paragraph or chapter
to help you understand.There is more now though then ever especially on the
web.

I've read the message boards on NVLD and my children fall short of making
that exact diagnosis. I always go back to my own grab bag theory, every child
gets a bag of LD's (more then one LD) and usually each bag will have a
variation of LD's for each child to contend with, many are simailar but will
have differences. The good part is many intervetions work for several LD's.
Such as organizational issues, most children with LD's all have some
difficulty with this area of school.

It's harder for a parent or a teacher to understand, It's easier if you have
the same problem as your children. That's the case with us. safety in numbers
so to speak.




SUBJECT:  New insight into Reading   Date:  97-11-09 20:40:26 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

I mentioned before that LD Online has a  new message Board that started in
August just 2-3 months ago. If you go to www.ldonline click on the Bulletin
Board then see the list of subject pretaining to learning disabilities.
Tthere are many people offering their very expert educated opinions on
subject such as "Teaching Reading"  which methods work and which don't. and
there is a section on Technology for Students. I spent 7 hours there today
exploring all the new material.
   It is always good to get new ideas and see what others are saying about
Dyslexia/Dysgraphia.

Happy researching,       Libby

SUBJECT:  Re:Visual Motor Integration   Date:  97-11-09 21:50:22 EST
From:  Jena39

Barb,

Nice formula for thinking about the interventions to ask for from the school.
Also thanks
for your elaboration about your kids:)

Julie

SUBJECT:  Re:Visual Motor Integration   Date:  97-11-09 21:57:58 EST
From:  Jena39

Im no expert....but having trouble pulling one's thoughts together when
writing a paper
requires a strategy in and of itself, aside from any dysgraphia problems,
that ld students
often need help with. One issue is that it depends on what type of thinking
is involved in
writing the paper.  Some students have a much easier time reporting facts in
a paper, than
they do evaluating information and thinking critically.  Especially if they
have trouble with
abstract thinking.  Good luck in talking with your ot:)

Julie

SUBJECT:  Re:Visual Motor Integration   Date:  97-11-10 09:24:46 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<  Im no expert....but having trouble pulling one's thoughts together when
writing a paper
requires a strategy in and of itself,>

You are right it is hard depending on the child, but in general all
dysgraphic children will have problems putting thoughts on the paper.

My children and I have discussed this, we have discerned for us that we don't
think our thoughts in a visual way. It is very much like the words just
appear when we are writing. Our annology is that  our brains are a computer
without the monitor being on. The information is there ( we know it is there)
but retrieving it to put it on paper is hard as we don't view it before it is
written.

Interrestingly we find that typing increases how well we write the content. I
don't know why that is but my personal point of view is it gets of some of
the frustration of  physically writing ( dysgrpahic children don't write
smoothly as do regular kids,or as neatly). this alone gives us more time to
work on the process of writing. Rewrites are now easier, another time saver.
Spell check indespensible. So what the computer does is eleminate the
furstrating parts of dysgraphia, thus we are able to concentrate on the
content.

  All of my childrens content has improved with the use of the computer. If a
child has to expend so much energy with the mechanics of writing there just
isn't enough time to think of the important areas in the my opinion, like
content.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Testing Results   Date:  97-11-10 15:11:05 EST
From:  SGorby

We got the results of the testing done for my son's writing problem today and
I am totally bewildered and confused.  They said he showed no dysgraphic
tendencies.
According to my son Christopher the test took about five minutes and
consisted of him copying drawings of shapes and writing his name.  They can
make this decision based on this?  My husband says they are professionals and
must be able to tell but I surely don't see how.

The psychologist said the reason it takes Christopher so long to write is
because he tries to do it perfectly.  Well if he is, he is failing at it
miserably.  His apaers this year are the sloppiest I have ever seen from him.
If he takes his he can write beautifully.  This year he is trying so hard to
get everything done that he gets points taken off left and right for
messiness and not completing letters(crossing t's and x's etc.)  He also
breaks into manuscript in the middle of a paper then reverts back to cursive.
All of this and he still spends 5-6 hours a night on his homework and doesn't
always get it done.  Then he gets points taken off for late papers.  He has
went from a straight A student to a C average this year.

Is this testing truly conclusive?  Isn't there something more they can do?
Help!!

Susan

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing Results   Date:  97-11-10 22:52:44 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<  Is this testing truly conclusive?  Isn't there something more they can do?
Help!!>

   No this testing is not conclusive to rule out a dysgraphic problem for
your child.
   As the school did not do a full diagnostic work up to indentify learining
disabilities ( which include dysgraphia) you now have the right to write the
school and state that you feel the tesitng was not appropriate and will have
your own testing done and if it does show a a learning disabiity that you
will be calling for another team meeting and will be sending them them the
bill for such testing. That is your right as a parent.

The school should have done a full evalutation. Even for the dysgraphia they
should have given more then a line and picture type test ( that is one test
to look for visual, motor integration problems). The school could have also
given a timed test to see how fast he writes. The major problem my children
encounter is that they write speed wise at a third grade level.

No matter what you think the problem is for your child. A full evaluation
should have been done to indentify the problem area that is causing your son
difficulty in school.

This is just the begining. To check out what I have said call your local
Office of Civil Rights, tell them your concerns and how the school has
handled it so far and ask for their advice. They helped me in the past when
the school ( as your son's school) did not do a full evaluation or adequate
testing for my children ( and I knew what my childrens problems were, as we
had a family history). The school knows you don't know your rights. It's a
shame that you have to come here to learn, in my opinion that is why schools
have so many angry parents.

Just be aware that outside testing can be expensive and if it doesn't show a
learning disbility, you will have to pay the bill ( the school is not
obiligated then). I had my insurance company pay for testing, that is another
process unto itself ( sort of like getting testing from school). Some will
allow testing period, others will allow testing if it is casuing your child
stress, but it worth asking as ours payed for greater then 2/3 of the fee for
two children.

Take Care Barb

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  really bad teacher   Date:  97-11-11 00:45:23 EST
From:  Karrabu

I asked my son's gifted teacher for a copies or the originals of his quarter
exam and all work turned in this past quarter.  Last week for report card
conferences she showed me the quarter exam, which was handwritten in cursive
by her.  My son made a D on the exam.  He got stuff wrong that I know he
knew.  There was a paper in his notebook that he never did.  She sent that
home with the rest of the work I asked for.  This paper was practice work,
also full page on unlined paper handwritten in cursive writing.  My son said
he could not read it.  I am not surprised since he can't read cursive writing
very well.  He is just learning how to write in cursive.  He does not know
how well enough to even write more than his name.  Sometimes he can figure
out a word or two.  However this was scarry even for me to read.  How can a
teacher of gifted children justify giving a child this kind of work if she
knows he is ADHD and has a handwriting problem.   I am going to school
tomorrow to ask that something be done about this.  My son got a C in the
class, however if this woman had presented the material differently, I am
sure he could have done much better.  Also I found that when she graded some
of his work she incorrectly marked some of it wrong.  She wants to force him
to write by hand.  It is obvious that he can't do it ledgibly enough for her
to always read.  This is the person responsibile for writing the 504 plan.
The district coordinator told me today that she is having trouble doing this,
so he told the school to make sure I am a part of the meeting to write this
plan.  I had been argueing with them telling them that I had a right to be a
part of this.  I guess now that  she can't do it, they want my participation.
Or maybe it was my call last week to OCR about his OT not being provided even
though he has a current IEP for it.  Whatever the reasons it looks like they
are begininng to take me seriously.  It is a shame a parent has to go through
so much just to get a quality education for her child.  Now these people want
to re-evaluate my son for gifted.  They question how he even got into the
program with his problems.  I welcome a re-eval, now they can test for other
problems.  I had to get my son tested on my own for the ADHD diagnosis.  It
seems they did not pick that up a few months before when the did the initial
gifted evaluation.  This school district is a mess.  They try to get away
with murder.

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing Results   Date:  97-11-11 17:09:34 EST
From:  Lynnebl

<<Just be aware that outside testing can be expensive and if it doesn't show
a learning disbility, you will have to pay the bill ( the school is not
obiligated then).>>

Barb,
I interpret the law differently on this issue than you do.  Over the years, I
have obtained five Independent Educational Evaluations (IEE) between my two
children.

I request in writing that the school provide an IEE at public expense and
they have two choices....Grant the request for an IEE at public expense or
take me to a due process hearing to show that their evaluation is
appropriate.  The school always chooses to grant the IEE because that is
cheaper than a due process.  The IEE testing begins after the school district
has put a contract in place with the independent evaluator.  I have never
been stuck with the bill.

The school evaluators have a conflict of interest and it is every child's
right to one IEE per evaluation at public expense according to my
interpretation of IDEA.             Lynne

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing Results   Date:  97-11-11 18:31:37 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

< The IEE testing begins after the school district has put a contract in
place with the independent evaluator.  I have never been stuck with the
bill.>

Now I have a question does the school choose the independent evaluator or
you. When I had my children tested I choose the evaluator.

Is there a difference when I choose to go outside the school and thus
eleminated the school participation in choosing the elvaluator in regard to
who may or may not get stuck with a bill. I was told( by my lawyer) that my
testing could be payed for by the school as it was my private testing that
showed my children quialfied for an IEP plan, but that if my children had not
quialfied I would have swollowed the bill.( I never pursuedthe issue of
payment, I have paid anything to get my kids help).

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing Results   Date:  97-11-12 08:16:19 EST
From:  Lynnebl

<<Now I have a question does the school choose the independent evaluator or
you. When I had my children tested I choose the evaluator.>>

I chose the evaluator.  The school sometimes provided a list of qualified
evaluators in our area but I did not have to choose someone from that list as
long as the person I chose was qualified.  I agree that if I had to I would
have paid the evaluator for my kid's sake.  An advantage of an evaluation
paid by the district.........hearing officers (in my state) see that as a
mutual agreement between the parent and school that the IEE was needed!  It
is easier to get our school district to adopt the recommendations if they
have paid for it!                               Lynne

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing
Results   Date:  97-11-12 10:25:32 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Now I have a question does the school choose the independent evaluator or
you. When I had my children tested I choose the evaluator. >

YOU choose the independent evaluator for an IEE, even when the school is
paying for it.  And, if they disagree with the results they have to go to due
process in order to have the right to rule out the evaluative data collected
through an IEE.

IDEA states clearly that the school must consider ALL evaluative and other
data pertinent to helping a child receive a FAPE.

SUBJECT:  Re:Testing Results   Date:  97-11-12 13:25:07 EST
From:  KevisB

<<According to my son Christopher the test took about five minutes and
consisted of him copying drawings of shapes and writing his name. >>

I've been travelling so have been reading these posts belatedly. This one
struck me because my severely dysgraphic son does quite well on these tests,
because his problem has nothing to do with visual motor integration. There
are so many causes of dysgraphia. If you think of the process of writing, it
is really quite complicated. There is thinking of what to write, visualizing
it, sending a signal to your fingers to write, applying proper pressure to
the writing instrument, remembering the letters you need to form the words,
remembering how to make the letters, watching to make sure the letters are
formed correctly, receiving signals back to the brain that the fingers are
doing the right movements, etc. I think the testing done only covered a
minimum part of this process which has to do with copying a visual image.
Since my son's problem is most severe in the sensation from the fingers back
to the brain (finger agnosia), copying forms correctly is not a problem for
him and he would most certainly not have qualified as LD in written
expression using just this kind of test.

I read a paper recently which suggested to parents and teachers of students
with finger agnosia (one cause of dysgraphia) that they try to write an essay
or even a sentence while watching the pencil point move (not watching the
letters form on the page). Keeping your eyes focused on the pencil point
constantly and remembering what it was you were trying to write is quite
difficult, and time-consuming.

If they give the Woodcock Johnson battery especially with all the subtests in
written expression, and perhaps another writing test which involves writing a
paragraph, and compare it to his ability, as required by IDEA, I would think
that he would certainly show a discrepancy there if it is taking so long to
do the work. Drawing pictures is NOT the same as writing words! Keep pushing
them to do a proper evaluation! I am just a parent, but have been through all
this with my child. Good luck, Kevis



SUBJECT:  evaluation?   Date:  97-11-12 21:54:46 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

Ok, so here is the scoop, sent letter to school requesting testing.  Received
letter back stating:
"At this time we will proceed with the referral process for Special
Education"  (I asked for testing for hidden Leaning Disabilities)
Was told today that our school system does not have a testing procedure in
place to test for Dysgraphia, or Auditory Processing problems.
Ok, so now what do I do?
I am planning on having her tested outside the school system.  Will they
accept the results I get from this testing?  My insurance will cover cost of
testing if it is doctor referred, but should I go back and request that the
school district pay for the tests, since they do not have a procedure in
place?

HELP
Susan

SUBJECT:  Re:evaluation?   Date:  97-11-12 23:39:34 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

< Was told today that our school system does not have a testing procedure in
place to test for Dysgraphia, or Auditory Processing problems.>

That is a true statment by the school, but it is misleading. They test to
find learning disabilities. Dysgraphia and Auditory Processing problems are
medical terms. They are the underlying cause of the learning disabiity. The
schools test for problems with reading, writing , math problems. It is a
matter of symantics and the school knows it. They are not allowed to use
medical terminology to describe the testing, but they know that parents use
the medical terms to describe thier childs problems and they should not have
been misleading by saying they don't test for dysgrpahia or CAPD. The tests
used for dysgraphia is also the test for progblems in written experssion (
the school termenology). That's why parents get confused, It was misleading
on the schools part and boarders on lying, in my opinion.

You now have two opitons. You can request in writing for an independent
evaluation ( IEE) or you can have the testing done on your own. I would
suggest you call your OCR office and explain to them what the school told
you, the OCR office is not going to be happy with the school. Ask their
opinion of how you should go about who should test and how you get the school
to do the testing. What ever you descide do all correspondence with school in
writing. Keep a log of telephone calls to the school with who took messgae,
date time what was said.

Now if I were in your shoes this is what I would do. I would request in
writng for an IEE by the school and without telling them have an independent
evaluation done privately ( since your insurance will cover it, try and see
if a neropsychologist can do the testing)). That way you will have two sets
of tests to look at and you can use just the schools or both at an IEP
meeting to try and have your son get services. You can choose to show your
testing or not at your own descrition.

You are learning, just keep plugging away.

Take Care Barb



SUBJECT:  Re:Testing Results   Date:  97-11-12 23:57:35 EST
From:  SGorby

Thanks to everyone who responded to my original post regarding my son's
testing results.

I was totally unaware that the school might pay for outside evalustion.  We
have been seriously looking at that option because I am really starting to
believe that the school board is only going to find what they want to find.
The local university will test him for $95/hr. and I will gladly pay it if
that is what it takes to get to the root of this problem.  I would certainly
rather they foot the bill, however.

I just found the information regarding achievemnt vs. ability a few days ago
and it really caught my attention.  Christopher if in the gifted program at
his school, but can't complete his written  assignments in three times the
amount of time that his regular classroom can.  He also has to concentrate so
hard on the act of getting the words on the paper that by the time he is
finished, he doesn't remember what he has written.

I truly hate to think where we would be without the information I have found
on these boards.-- Probably still telling him to try harder, like his
teachers do:(

Thanks again,
Susan

SUBJECT:  Re:evaluation?   Date:  97-11-13 09:36:43 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

Dear Susan,

    What the school may be telling you is that they have little or no
experience in diagnosing specific learning disabilities such as Dysgraphia
which is a form of Dyslexia. this should raise the Red Flag. You want your
child's learning disability to be identified ASAP. Even if the school
psychologist does the IQ test and other screening tests they may not find out
which LD your child has.
   You can have the testing done on your own and pay for it. That's is waht I
did and had to have an second Educational Psychologist evaluate our son a
year later before it was determined that he had Dysgraphia. The first DR.
found "Something but not anything Specific." Hopefully the first DR you get
will find out what Ddisability your child has..
   If you want the school to pay for the testing you must have their
permission. Try to work with them Express your concern that since they don't
have or "don't know how to" test for Dysgraphia then in the interest of
getting you child help ASAP will they let your child be tested by
DR._________ an outside Psychologist.  In the mean time find an Educational
Psychologist in yur area and confer with them.You can sometimes contact
Orton-Gillingham Society Chapter in your area adn they may gie you a
referral. Keep us posted. Libby

SUBJECT:  who should test   Date:  97-11-13 18:30:11 EST
From:  Mars000210

In most of the references for dysgrpahia the prefered perosn to test is a
nerophychologist rather then an educational physchologis as this disabiity is
part of their training.

I have known educational physcholoist's who have had the expertise to
diagnosis dysgrpahia, but not all are familar with this Learining disability.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  outside testing & results   Date:  97-11-15 11:11:19 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

Well, yesterday I took my daughter for testing.  The results were just what I
thought they would be.  ADD and dysgraphia and the results from a verbal IQ
test of 136.  Now I just need for the school to get with the program and test
her.  Requested in writing an outline of how they intend to test her and a
time frame for this testing.  I figure that the school probably won't accept
easiely the results from the outside testing, but am going to give them a
copy of the results and request that Stacy be placed under a 504 plan.  Just
not real sure of how to word the request.  Any suggestions?
The relief that both Stacy and I felt at the results was like having a two
ton weight lifted off.  Stacy even made the comment that it was nice to know
that she was not just getting stupid.  (sad, had not relized she had felt
that way)
I want to thank everyone for their help and input.  It has made such a
difference in how I have delt with this.
THANK YOU    THANK YOU   THANK YOU.
I will keep everyone posted on what happens next.

Susan

SUBJECT:  Re:Alphasmart   Date:  97-11-15 19:23:50 EST
From:  JamieG1703

We just ordered an Alphasmart and are waiting for delivery!!  These posts
have given me great hope!  Thanks!

SUBJECT:  Re:Written Expression Probs.   Date:  97-11-16 01:46:41 EST
From:  Jmotheduck

I am a Resource Room teacher, serving K -6 in the areas of language, reading
, and written expression. I am about to give a 10 minute presentation to our
faculty on the problems of written expression and dysgraphia.  The teachers
at my school make numerous modifications, we have computers in every
classroom, use NCR paper and give oral tests. It's the best place I've ever
worked!
My question is - what are the top ten things you suggest I tell my faculty?
I plan to give each teacher handouts that list possible modifications in
addition to the ones listed on the IEP.  I appreciate your input.  Thanks!

                                                           Barbara O.

SUBJECT:
Re:Written Expression Probs.   Date:  97-11-16 08:35:31 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

< My question is - what are the top ten things you suggest I tell my faculty>

1. Children with dysgraphia can't think and write at the same time, or listen
and write at the same time, or talk and write at the same time or pay
attention to other instructions being given while writing. They can only
write. what does this mean, don't expect these children to takes notes
effectively while you talk or while a movie is being shown. These children
will miss directions if they are writing and the teacher is talking. They
will require more time to get work done as they cope by stopping and
listening and then must reorient to get back to the task of writing. They
can't jot down a quick instruction that is given as their walking out of
class or putting thier books away.

2. Note takers must not only copy the question but the answers to the drills
and work done in class. Dysgraphic children spend too much time completing
the assignments and don't have enough time to review the work they have
completed.

3. Allow the child to use a pencil or pen to do any written work as well as
cursive or prinitng at the child descretion ( each child will be different in
which is easier for them).

4. If the child uses assitive teachnology to help them in school, try and
think of ways that it will work easily for the child and you as the teacher.
This is a must. My children use thier alphasmart a little differently for
each teacher. Allow some lee way in the format of the work presented in thier
presentation, but what ever you do don't change it over the coarse of the
year ( these children don't deal well with adopting a new format they need to
do things atomatically, so that they can concentrate on the content of the
material).

5. Allow the child to ask questions of the child next to them. They may be a
step behind when the class has moved on to the next project. They know a new
direction has been given but need clarification to move on to the next step
the class is doing at the moment.

6. After elementary school, remedation of handwriting is not the point.
Content is the issue, how to improve the content. A child who has a good note
taker, can see how another child writes clear concise information, ( this
helped my children a lot, they didn't have that skill, but got a better idea
by viewing another childs style of writing out information).

7. Encourage these children to read anything at home, comics, short stories,
new papers, allow them to bring what you might concider less then appropriate
reading for reading time at school. The larger their fund of descriptive
words they acquire the better their writing ability. They have to really
enjoy the book or story or paper to acquire a larger fund of words to use
when they write.

8. If a child writes a paper and the idea of the paper is good, express that
to the child. These children often have great ideas but it may not be present
thier thoughts well when written. The child is concerned with the idea and
need to see that someone gets the point of what they wanted to say, not that
it was always poorly written. They will try harder to present the material
better if they know they have great thoughts.

9. Go to ldonline.org and click on indepth area then click on the technology
section then find Richard Wanderman's article on dysgrpahia. Give a copy to
each teacher, They can't know what this feels like until they read more about
this glitch.

10. Be creative, tell them to think of ways to decrease the demands of
writing for these children so that they can learn the material that is
presented.

Take Care Barb < I have dysgraphia

These are just a few suggestions. It is also important that the teachers
understand that not all dysgrpahic children are the same. The underlying
problem may differ for dysgraphic problem a child has. Their are differences
for the Apaxic child from the Gerstmann Syndrome child. They may have much in
common but they will also have some differences.

Take Care Barb






SUBJECT:  Re:outside testing & results   Date:  97-11-16 08:51:40 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<  Now I just need for the school to get with the program and test her. >

I you had outside testing and it showed dsygraphia, the you don't need to
have the school test. You need to wrtie a letter stating you want to have
another IEP meeting to discuss your testing.
Since the school choose not to test then you have the right at the next IEP
meeting to request an IEP based on your testing ( make sure your testing
results quialfy for an IEP, you can have an LD but it must be severe enough
to quialfy for an IEP, get the quialfying material from your states governors
office ( proteciton and advocacy agency). The school has the option of
denying you the IEP based on your testing and they may want testing of their
own, you don't have to agree to their testing as they refused to test your
child before. The school then has the option of starting a due process
proceedure to have their own testing done, which means they will then want to
do their own testing to prove you wrong. They may just accept your testing
and give you the IEP, but be prepared if they do not.

Call you Office of Civil Rights and ask what they suggest you do with the
testing results you have now. See what they say. Ask what you should do if
the school still refuses to give you and IEP after your next meeting. Just
keep plugging away. Remember even if the school doesn request a due process
to have their own testing done, it is better to be prepared incase they do. I
would also call the govenors office of protection and advocacy and relate the
facts so far ask them the same questions. Be prepared.

Take Care Barb



SUBJECT:  Re:outside testing & results   Date:  97-11-16 14:13:22 EST
From:  LKSPEC

Where would be the best place to have dysgraphia testing done?  More & more
it sounds like the problem my son is having.  I know this was not done at his
evaluation last year at school.  The thing that confuses me is that my son is
an excellent artist, drawing every small detail.  Can he control his drawing
like this & still have dsygraphia?

SUBJECT:  Re:outside testing & results   Date:  97-11-16 15:18:29 EST
From:  Mars000210

Hello you wrote:

<  Can he control his drawing like this & still have dsygraphia?>

Yes you can have dysgrpahia and be a great artist. I have a duaghter who's
major is grafic arts in college. She is a wonderfull artist and my middle
girl is also showing artisitic talent.

The pathways are diferent for drawing and writing.

Dysgraphia or any LD usually doesn't stand alone. So the best coarse is to
have a full assessment that looks for difficulty in all areas with a
concentration in the area of written expression. The books I have read
reccomend a nerophyschologist to test for dysgraphia and realted
disabilities. That is who I had test my children.

Take Care Barb

SUBJECT:  Re:outside testing & results   Date:  97-11-18 12:57:01 EST
From:  KevisB

<<The thing that confuses me is that my son is an excellent artist, drawing
every small detail. >> It is confusing the school too, since they may have
only tested for a deficit in visual-motor integration which can cause
dysgraphia. My son is also an excellent artist, and severely dysgraphic. When
one draws, one does control the pencil point visually. Writing is supposed to
be in motor memory, so that one doesn't have to visually control the pencil
point. When children have difficulty getting the motions needed for letter
forms into motor memory can be another cause of dysgraphia. As well as a
neuropsychologist, you might consider an assessment by an occupational
therapist.
Kevis

SUBJECT:  Re:evaluation?   Date:  97-11-19 18:31:02 EST
From:  GypsyinPal

<< I would request in writng for an IEE by the school and without telling
them have an independent evaluation done privately

Be careful with this. If the same tests are done too close together the
scores may be invalid. This is true of any standardized test if the same form
is used as well as IQ tests. Good luck.


SUBJECT:  looking at the future   Date:  97-11-21 23:29:12 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

Ok, here is my question.  Since we just found/diagnosed Stacy's Dysgraphia in
the 3rd 6 weeks of her 6th grade year, what kind of things should we be
looking for in a Junior High?  I know it seems strange to be looking so far
ahead, but I really don't figure that any major changes are going to happen
this year at her present school.  I have called and asked what type of
resources are available at the next level but only was told about a resource
room.  I really feel she may need more than that for at least a couple of
years.  What does everybody think?
This late in her elementary years, should I be looking more toward private
schools?
Help.

Susan

SUBJECT:  Re:looking at the future   Date:  97-11-22 09:15:58 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I know it seems strange to be looking so far ahead, but I really don't
figure that any major changes are going to happen this year at her present
school.>

Its important to look far ahead.  That way you can sort of work backwards in
your mind and make plans about what should happen each year in order to meet
goals.

There is no reason why it's too late this year to do something.  NOW is
always the best time to help a child.  There are a number of things that can
be done to support a student with writing difficulties.

What areas give your daughter the most problems.

SUBJECT:  Re:looking at the
future   Date:  97-11-22 12:48:57 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

She has trouble getting answers on paper and her handwritting is unreadable.
(cursive, that is)  She can give the right answer verbally, but for some
reason she writes down the wrong answer.  She has trouble doing written
spelling tests, but verbally she can spell very well.
The main reason I don't feel anything will get done to benifit her this year
is that school still wants to test but not untill after Christmas holiday.
then they tell me it should take another 4 to 6 weeks to get results, go over
them, and then set up a meeting to discuss what to do.  That puts us into the
next to last 6 weeks of school.  That does not leave a lot of time to help
her or to bring her grades up from failing to a true representation of her
ability.  I am pushing the school into doing testing and accomadations
sooner, but wont know if I have been successful till after Thanksgiving.


SUBJECT:  Re:looking at the future   Date:  97-11-22 13:11:05 EST
From:  Ratatat

<I am pushing the school into doing testing and accomadations sooner, but
wont know if I have been successful till after Thanksgiving.  >

There is no reason why the school can't provide accommodations now, while
they are awaiting the evaluative data they will use to build an IEP later.
The accommodations that are obvious don't need an evaluation to figure out -
and there is nothing prohibiting them from providing them right away.
Clearly, this child needs to have things read to her and to be tested orally.
I don't understand why something to obvious can't be provided immediately -
with, or without, the evaluation information in hand.

SUBJECT:  Re:looking at
the future   Date:  97-11-22 21:08:04 EST
From:  Lookouts 4

Susan,
   Most schools cannot apply accommodations unless a student is classified.
there must be an answer why is the student suddenly making good grades? the
school must follow procedure and must have the verification (the educational
evaluation thst states there is a learning disability) before accommodations
can be applied.
   The school system takes very long time to get this evaluation completed
because there are so many teacher/psychologist/threapist that have personal
situations that delay the due process.
  I would recommend you go outside the school to have the evaluation done
independantly, if your can afford to do this. A good Educaitonal Psychologist
can complete the testing in three 2 or 3 hour sessions. The test are usually
done a sessin a week. and the sost is around $1800 in New York.
  If this is not an option for you then keep after the school and remind them
of each deadline. 30 days after the initial decision to test, 30 days to
complete tests, then 30 days to give an evaluation. Put each date on your
calendar and request they notify you when each step is completed. This is the
law and they know it. Don't let them tell you someone was sick or jsut had a
baby or anything. the work must be done.

If you need specific accommodations I give you the ones my son has been
given. He is classified with Dysgraphia and had an outside evaluation done in
1995. It took a long time to get everything in place but he was the first in
his school district to be truly diagnosed with Dysgraphia. HE MADE THE HONOR
ROLL FOR THE FIRST TIME THIS SEMESTER. Something is being done correctly.
   the classification should come first then you can insist on the
accommodations. that's the Law too. Good Luck. E-Mail me if you want
accommodations now.  Libby



SUBJECT:  Re:looking at the future   Date:  97-11-23 23:12:01 EST
From:  DaysOfPooh

<<<  the school must follow procedure and must have the verification (the
educational evaluation thst states there is a learning disability) before
accommodations can be applied. >>>

This is not necessarily so of every school district . While our 6 year old
daughter was going through the evaluations by the school , she had a list of
over 15 modifications/acommodations that were put in place until the testing
was done and we could meet to review and form a new
IEP . ( Her previous classification was Speech /Language Impaired , after her
testing she was classified Orthopedically Impaired to cover the expressive
writing disorder concerns as she did not test below grade level .) Her
modifications before the IEP were directed towards her writing problems . I
would ask for acommodations now , before the testing was done since it seems
its going to be awhile !!!

Nancy

SUBJECT:  Re:looking at the future   Date:  97-11-24 10:38:15 EST
From:  Ratatat

< I would ask for acommodations now , before the testing was done since it
seems its going to be awhile !!!>

Absolutely.

SUBJECT:  interpations please? or HELP   Date:  97-11-25 20:12:46 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

Got a copy of Dr.'s report on Stacy's testing today..................confused
a little
tests given:
Slosson Intelligence Test - Revised, Sentence-Completion,
Informal-Free-Expression, Adlerian Life Style Interview, House-Tree-Person,
Slosson Oral Reading Test, Bender Visual-Motor Gastalt, Visual-Aural Digit
Span Test, and Conner's Scale.
?1.  where can I get info on these tests?
?2.  what does "She learns better across than within modalities of learning"
mean?
?3.  under diagnosis on report:  Axis I:  309.28 Adjustment disorder with
mixed emotional features.   HUH?
       Axis V;  Current GAF:  50  Past Year GAF:  65   Double HUH?

I do know that overall her ADD and Dysgraphia qualify her for help, just not
sure what the above stuff means.

thanks
Susan

SUBJECT:  Re:interpations please? or H   Date:  97-11-26 10:13:03 EST
From:  Ratatat

<?1.  where can I get info on these tests?>

You can look up all of these assessments in the Buro's Book of Mental
Measurements.  Make sure that you review a current edition.  You should be
able to find it at your public library in the reference section.

You should return to the person who did the assessments and ask for a written
report and explanation of the test measures and their results AND how they
specifically impact learning along with a list of accommodations that should
be used in an academic setting.  Otherwise, the information you have is
useless.

SUBJECT:  Dysgraphia;I think it ?   Date:  97-11-26 20:57:16 EST
From:  Raksmom

This site has been like looking at stories about my daughter. She was
diagnosed three years ago with ADD, and "some L.D." She has visual problems
from strabismus at birth. Not blind but a lot of perceptial problems. /she
has been getting resource room services for a few years. she has great
trouble with writing, we can't read  it and neither can she sometimes.At
present she is 14 in Jr. high and going to resource room one period a day.It
is a constant fight for the correct services.We ordered special paper for her
to use in school, it is very white with darker green lines which are raised ,
her writing has improved greatlywhen she uses it.She has an awkward grip on
pens and pencils........we are trying to teach her keyboard if anyone knows
of an appropriate typing tutor PLEASE E MAIL ME . she has a very hard time
with flexing her fingers for typing, we tried learning sign lang. to limber
her up, it helped some. anyway she hasn't been diagnosed with dysgraphia but
it sure sounds like we fit in here. i am open to any and all suggestions to
make her life less frustrating. thanks susan

SUBJECT:  Re:Help!wtree5   Date:  97-11-28 00:31:49 EST
From:  Mcnibor

My son is also dysgraphic,verbally oriented.He is under a 504 modification
plan.You need these accomodations!Federal laws supports your son's right to
dictate,have assisted note-taking,etc.(late posting,maybe you've already
accomplished this)

SUBJECT:  Book helps dysgraphic son   Date:  97-11-28 01:14:06 EST
From:  Mcnibor

Try reading The Gift Of Dyslexia by Ron Davis.This method has really helped
improve our son's ability to write.He can read his own notes now,and so can
we.Some of you have mentioned the posture switching or re-positioning
'syndrome'.This is also addressed in this book.These things can all be done
at home and we had fun doing the clay modeling,even those family members who
didn't need it!(Ability Workshop Press,1601 Old Bayshore Hwy.,Burlingame,CA
94010)
The Texas Scottish Rite Hospital,Dallas TX has a wonderful program and also
offers free extensive testing for children age 14 & under.Call their Dyslexia
Dept. for info and other resources.
Dysgraphia is, frequently, just part of the picture for dyslexia!Determining
whether it exists in isolation is critical to effective remediation.

SUBJECT:
school letter   Date:  97-11-30 02:45:35 EST
From:  Vrybusymom

Following is part of a letter I received from my daughters school:

"In your letter of November 3, 1997, you requested special education testing
for your daughter, Stacy.  You questioned whether there were any disabilities
that might be affecting her learning.  A RAP (realizing Academic Potential)
committee meeting was scheduled to discuss your request on November 17, 1997.
Stacy was also placed on the waiting list to be screened.

The RAP committee reviewed the screening results and other current academic
information available.  The committee concluded that a referral to Special
Education to address a learning disability was inappropriate.  At this time,
Stacy's performance indicates that there is no educational need to pursue
further testing."

Ok, so now what?  Is this a standard type answer to see how many people will
take this and drop the whole subject?  Will giving them a copy of the outside
testing results change their tune?  Or am I in for a major battle now?
The one question I would like for them to answer is "How can a child with a
136 IQ be failing and them not see an educational need to pursue futher
testing?"  Am I asking too much?
Why does "an adaqute" education get more support than "the best" education?

Just sign me as
One who won't give in or up
Susan

SUBJECT:  Re:school letter   Date:  97-11-30 09:13:08 EST
From:  Ratatat

<Will giving them a copy of the outside testing results change their tune?
Or am I in for a major battle now?
The one question I would like for them to answer is "How can a child with a
136 IQ be failing and them not see an educational need to pursue futher
testing?"  Am I asking too much?
Why does "an adaqute" education get more support than "the best" education?>

If you have never shared the outside evaluation with them, then you really
should.  First, had they decided to pursue an evaluation, you don't want them
repeating the same tests, thus invalidated their results (certain tests can
not be given again within certain time frames).  Also, they may not
understand that your child has an ability in the superior range, thus telling
them that if her performance is just average there is actually a measurable
discrepancy.

The federal guidlines state the the child must receive "educational benefit,"
not that the the student should be educated to the maximum benefit.  However,
you need to check your state guidelines because some states actually have
this "maximum benefit" clause.

Also, there is a ruling on High IQ and LD from the U.S. Department of
Education.  You can find it in the Special Education Forum library to
download.  The file is called "High IQ and LD."  You can print out a copy of
this information and include it with a copy of your child's independent
evaluation.  Make sure you include a cover letter (and keep a copy of
everything you send).  I'd also suggest that you cc: copy the appropriate
District office as well as the State Dept. of Education/Office of Special
Education as these are the monitoring agencies for a local school.

[at the moment the Special Education library is mis-labeled as "Exam Exchange
Library."]